Narcissism and "elite" triathletes

Triathlon Forum
1

The idea seems to come up from time to time that elite triathletes (especially elite age group triathletes) are narcissists.

I think that this is exactly wrong.

Reading over Wikipedia and the definitions of narcissism and grandiosity- it appears that some people have problems with “reality-testing”. That they have no method to compare (or they refuse) to compare their self-illusions with reality.

Triathlon is a ridiculous activity. It is not relevant to most attributes that humans consider important.

But, it is nonetheless a great reality test.
“I think I am wonderful. But even after all this pointless work- I am still over an hour slower than…”

All of the middle-age men I know believe that they are wonderful. So much so, that they would NEVER, EVER put themselves in a situation where they had to admit “I tried really, really hard and still got beaten.”

All of the true narcissist I know are “truly wonderful- just the way they are” and avoid realistic external validation/ testing like the plague.

Julie Miller, cheaters and dopers- might be “narcists”. They “cheat” so that the reality-test gives off falsely positive results.
But at least they wanted a “reality test” in the first place. Most narcissists never get that far.

So why do we think “elite athletes” are narcissists?

Clearly “constantly testing oneself” at a pointless activity is a somewhat “selfish” behavior, or a foolish waste of time.
But that seems obvious from the beginning.

  1. Perhaps it is that “being an elite” athlete has no great pretensions from the beginning.
    I see lots of middle age men who believe that by buying useless stuff, watching TV, wasting time on Facebook or lavender room- that they are altruistically benefiting their families and the world.

Is it that few elite triathletes ascribe a selfless benefit to their obsessions from the beginning?
And a lack of self delusion is the opposite of narcissism!

  1. Is it that “elites” are be definition faster than we are. And that their superior genetic make-up and their superior triathlon work ethic- destroys our own ability to “fake” a positive reality test.
    But if so, why do we take the test at all?
2

Did someone call you a Narcissist?
I’ve not heard the theory before this.

3

You lost me when you grouped “elite” triathletes and elite age group athletes.

4

Anecdote. There’s a self select elite wave at a competitive local sprint. (Sub 60 minutes podium and that’s with a 15 mile bike.) Typically about 20 athletes choose to start in this wave. Most of them deservedly so. But every damn year there are 2 or three people in the “elite” wave who begin to breast stroke about 60 seconds in, then stop swimming, then try swimming again, give up, breast stroke to the first buoy and then cling to it to catch their breath. Every damn year.

Meanwhile the first few guys look like they are churning up the entire lake and they exit in 8 minutes…

5

Did someone call you a Narcissist?
I’ve not heard the theory before this.

No perhaps I am another kind of crazy altogether.

The most recent time narcissism came up was with Julie Miller yesterday.

“Question: why did she cheat ?
Answer: Because she is a narcissist.
Question2: But all podium winning age group athletes are narcissists and they don’t all cheat?”

“Narcisism” comes up every time their is a thread about cheating.
And every time there is a discussion about people training “too hard” or taking the “hobby” “too seriously.”

6

You lost me when you grouped “elite” triathletes and elite age group athletes.

The thread is a bit rambling.

In the end - I think “elite” means “quit a bit faster than me.”

Which might be why some believe that “elites” are “narcissists.”

Perhaps the reasoning goes:
“I am wonderful. No-one is better than me. But Chis mccormsck is better than me. But that can’t be! There must be something wrong! Maybe he is a cheater.! Maybe he makes selfish choices and wastes lots if time training. (Unlike the important slowtwitch posting that I do).”

7

I really only have somewhat constant contact with one triathlete who still races a lot. He’s the fastest triathlete I have ever known spanning almost 30 years. Literally I have to drag it out of him how training and racing are going. I say ‘how’s training and racing going?’. “It’s ok all is good hope to have a fun season”. Then we just talk about life and whatnot. So I ask ‘what are your recent results?’…‘oh well i won a 5k and 10k last month set a new PR too was fun. Won that triathlon in such and such yesterday.’ It’s hilarious and refreshing…so humble and gracious.

8

Yeah- that has been my experience also.
The best athletes I have known have tended to be the most humble.

Maybe it is because they have less to prove.

But I tend to think that perfecting any craft requires self knowledge. Self knowledge would force one to recognize that…
Being a great athlete is part talent- which is just a form of luck.
And part hard work- which is just a questionable choice of time management.
Neither one proves much. Except that you are/were fast.

9

well narcissists often think they know everything, can be vain, and be egocentric. and I’ve met plenty of those at triathlons. and also some type a dickwads. But there are also some really nice people in triathlons.

10

… there are also some really nice people in triathlons.

They’re called The Volunteers

11

… there are also some really nice people in triathlons.

They’re called The Volunteers

+1 That gave me a good laugh

12

Your post raises a few different ideas, but here are some thoughts.

As for whether elite AG athletes are generally narcissists: Some probably are. Sure. Just like there are probably some MOP athletes who are narcissists. And probably BOP athletes that are. And probably people in the crowd that are. Why? Because people are people and you get all kinds at a triathlon.

I will tell you that of the absolute top amateurs in the country, in my experience, they are some of the nicest and most down-to-Earth athletes at any race. Are some DBs? Of course. But most are not. And I would say that in my opinion most of the very top guys don’t make excuses when they don’t win. Maybe that’s one of the reasons they are so good.

As for the people calling elite athletes narcissists: People are always making excuses as to why they aren’t beating their competition or why they aren’t a pro or whatever. “Well the top AG guys / Pros train all day and I have a job.” “The top AG guys / Pros have .” It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not, and chances are they don’t know a single thing about the top AG athletes or Pros they are talking about, but it’s a great opportunity for them to try to justify to themselves why they didn’t beat someone . . . . (now which seems to be more narcissistic of the two groups?).

Listen the morning of a race, or afterwards, or the weeks leading up. Even easier, just read this forum. People are always making some excuse before or after a race about why they aren’t going to dominate everyone (because of course they totally could but have decided to let someone else have some time in the spotlight / pink). There is always an excuse that they are “training through” the race or that they are “going to race at IM watts in a 70.3 because it’s better for IM training” or how they “have an achy calf” or something. There is always an excuse and claiming that the faster athletes are narcissists is just another one.

But at the end of the day, if people just spent less time worrying about other people and went out and did their best, without making excuses as to why they didn’t win the whole damn thing…or come in top 10…or top 50%…or whatever, everyone would be a lot better off. But of course that requires everyone to focus solely on themselves for the race, which, unfortunately brings us right back to being labeled as… narcissistic…damn it.

13

“Narcisism” comes up every time their is a thread about cheating.
And every time there is a discussion about people training “too hard” or taking the “hobby” “too seriously.”

I think I was the one arguing with you in the other thread.

First, I think “narcissism” is a really broad term, and you’re using it in a narrower, more pejorative sense. And focusing more on the aspect of self-entitlement thanothers characteristics. Nothing wrong with that, just pointing it out.

Just a few of my observations. I don’t think all narcissism is bad. Admiring your own abilities, appearance, and capacity for work is good. People who admire themselves can be quite pleasant to be around, provided it doesn’t extend to annoying levels or into “personality disorder”-grade narcissism.

Triathletes in general tend to be more narcissistic than the general population. Again, nothing inherently bad about that.

Any my last observation is that I think narcissism can correlate with high achievement. The most narcissistic person I know (to the personality disorder grade) is a CEO and self-made billionaire (not Trump!). He adores himself. Believes he’s better than anyone else, and cannot tolerate any sort of failure. I’ve seen him (privately) break down into tears, sobbing, at minor failures. But works harder than anyone I know.

I just have a bit of aversion to the too-easy hand-waving answer of “they’re narcissistic” to explain cheaters. There’s more to the story than that.

14

They’re called completers and bucket listers.

Not everyone gets a medal.

15

There is no such thing as a reality test in an endeavour with as many excuses as endurance sport. You can always find a way to tell yourself you are the best for “x circumstances”. “I am the fastest guy who is also a neurosurgeon”, “I am the fastest gal who has 4 kids under 2 and a thriving law practice”, “I am the strongest and fittest person but I don’t do well in the heat/rain/cold/ on this unaero bike”.

Narcissism is a relative game. I know from experience.

16

Narcissists are likely over-represented in the elite triathlete population. But I think narcissists are probably over-represented in most groups of highly successful people. Narcissists are trying to show everyone how special they are and that they deserve attention. (The reason for this is, as children, they were never loved simply for being who they were by their parents. Narcissists are desperately trying to fill that hole.)

The performing arts is rightly famous for attracting narcissists for this reason and athletics does this too. Anytime there’s something to be “won” and acclaim to be given, narcissists are going to show up. It’s foolish to think triathlon is somehow different.

Triathlon is also a sport which allows even the non-elite triathlete to get some claim to being special simply by being a triathlete. Tell somebody at a random party you’re a triathlete and there’s often a “Wow! That’s really impressive!” Narcissists eat that stuff up.

Being a narcissist makes one a shitty human but the traits that come with it are conducive to being a great athlete (or business person). There’s:
a lack of empathya feeling of superiority to everyone else (great for confidence)the objectification of others (using other people to further one’s own ends)delegitimizing the needs of others (no need to spend time worrying about someone else’s problems - they mean nothing!)externalizing problems (problems are always someone else’s fault - no need to come down hard on oneself)a belief that one is special and should be rewardeda sense of entitlement (this is, from a competition aspect, a good trait - why accept being put in the back of the pack at race start? Argue!) appropriating creditalways trying to win - everything is a competition
Somebody mentioned the humble triathlete not saying how he won races. This does not in itself mean he’s not a narcissist. There’s two types of narcissists. The overt/grandiose narcissist is the kind most people think of. This is the braggart and jackass and is easily spotted and avoided.

There is also the covert/shy narcissist. Same underlying traits but coated in a sweet and humble surface. In public this person comes across as caring and unselfish. Once you get to know this person you realize it’s all an act, done so the person can be admired for being caring and unselfish. Behind closed doors he’s a terror. Way more dangerous because you do not see him coming.

A classic example is a guy who meets this great woman, they get engaged and he can’t believe how lucky he is to meet somebody so special. Once they’re married, she stops doing shit and becomes demanding and controlling. But when they’re in public, she is sweet and gracious, volunteers and is known as a “pillar of the community”. Nobody believes the guy when he tells them how horribly he gets treated.

http://michaelsamsel.com/Content/Difficult_Styles/narcissism_interpersonal.html
The author, writing about the covert narcissist: "If working outside the home, often is in a service profession helping others, such as teaching, nursing, social work, ministry, etc…, "

Incidentally, Julie Miller was a mental-health counselor. And from the NYTimes, “But with her many responsibilities — she also runs a company that helps new parents deal with babies’ sleep problems — Miller had established herself as a minor celebrity in town, an inspirational, warm, sympathetic woman who could apparently handle it all: work, motherhood, training and high-level sports competition.” There’s that “pillar of the community” bit.

Would also add that narcissists, while being horrible to deal with, are victims too. They are majorly damaged people who got emotionally screwed-up by their parents when they were children. They create this fake self in which they try to be “great” or “perfect” because they feel their real self is unworthy of being loved. “Narcissist” is used as an insult but narcissism is actually a tragic condition.

17

I wish not everyone got a medal… I throw those stupid "finisher " medals in the trash every time. The money spent on that could be put towards better swag to help advertise the sport or the event. I mean seriously, who trains for triathlons and is glad they finish ? Finishing is never the question, how fast you finish is what matters.

18

I like the medals because they are tangible reminders of each race. Often I’ll look at one and remember a certain point in the race or a memory about the weekend. Like I have certain segments of races that are buried in my mind that I often refer back to when I don’t want to train or when I’m feeling defeated.

But yeah, better swag would be much appreciated.

19

Not sure there are anymore in tri than the rest of life. There are lots of people just doing the best they can on he day with what they showed up with and getting on with it.

Most people struggle when it is hotter

20

… there are also some really nice people in triathlons.

They’re called The Volunteers

Lol veer true