My summer project

Triathlon Forum
1

I ride/rode a 2013 Plasma R3 with full internal cable routing. The Plasma R3 was probably one of the fastest rim brake bikes produced. Damon convinced me to buy it :slight_smile:

I thought it was time to check out disc brakes and cannot believe the price of the bikes. I can afford one, but I am not comfortable dropping 20k given how “competitive” I am these days.

I also question how much faster that bike would be

So I decided to do this little experiment

I bought a brand new Cervelo P series, base configuration. $3500 US.
I was just finishing getting my Plasma ready for TTing (a few details remain, like Blip box placement).

I am going to get the fit identical on the two

I am going to aero test them one against the other in equal configurations, or as close as equal as possible. For example the Plasma has 1x eTap, new waxed chain, nicer extensions…The Cervelo has 105 mechanical, factory chain.
I am going to slowly make the Cervelo closer to the Scott
I am going to optimize the Cervelo after that

At the very end I am going to benchmark a World Tour bike (I have 2 types at my disposal) against my fixed up P Series. I have access to a JV P5D with all the trimmings. If I can make the two fits identical I will. I will also try to repeat the test with the owner of the P5D since he can do double my watts :slight_smile:

I paid $3500 US for the P series. I would like to keep the “upgrades” as close the $1500 as possible.
I want to see what every step brought me (wax chain, 1x, wheels…)
Of course I will test tire pressure in the process.
I will use lower cost components during the process, for example I will put lower cost but reputable wheels rather than a set of 858s. But at the end I will use top of the line wheels on the superBike.

So how much faster would a JVP5D with Princeton’s (example) be ?

I am going to document and measure every step. I am sure there will be a few steps that will provide 0 watts and cost money. Example, I know AXS will give me 0watts over the 105 mecahnical but I don’t mind paying for the convenience of AXS everywhere, although I would prefer Shimano everywhere, but that ship has sailed.

I won’t put Ceramic Speed for example because I know the watts/$ do not meet my threshold.

If anyone has ideas to try along the path, I’d be happy to incorporate them

First step is to get repeatable baselines over and over. Early in the process I will freeze the Scott and just start picking away at the Cervelo.

For example the Scott as SRAM 1x. The Cervelo currently has 105 mechanical but I will be 1x in the near future. At that point I can use my 1x Power2Max crank on both.

I plan to start with equivalent factory wheels, then go 60mm front/rear disc.

I plan to use Faveros along the way

I plan to race both bikes in our local Thursday night TT to get test and real world results. At the end I want to see how many watts at 42km/h I saved.

Idea is to see how much better a super bike is and what upgrades get me closest at a reasonable cost.

I will probably do the first TT, throw up and sell the bike LOL.

IMG_1980.jpg
IMG_1980.jpg
IMG_1982.jpg

1 Like
2

Love this idea! Please update along the way.

As someone riding a 2013 cervelo P3, I am considering upgrading my bike in the distant future but I would hate to ride it for the first time and find out it’s not any faster. Or pay thousands for a 5 watt savings when I love riding my current budget bike.

3

Love this idea! Please update along the way.

As someone riding a 2013 cervelo P3, I am considering upgrading my bike in the distant future but I would hate to ride it for the first time and find out it’s not any faster. Or pay thousands for a 5 watt savings when I love riding my current budget bike.

The 105 mechanical is going to end up on my 2009 P2 and I plan to benchmark that.

4

As another Scott Plasma 3 rider, I obviously LOVE this. My only suggestion is to run 25mm front, 28mm rear tires to keep things “modern”.

Most 28’s will fit the Scott IF they have a stable carcass (like most Vittoria’s), whereas a tire like a Continental Ultra Sport (yeah I know, shame on me) dramatically changes size with different air pressure, limiting you initially to about 65 psi for it to fit.

5

As another Scott Plasma 3 rider, I obviously LOVE this. My only suggestion is to run 25mm front, 28mm rear tires to keep things “modern”.

Most 28’s will fit the Scott IF they have a stable carcass (like most Vittoria’s), whereas a tire like a Continental Ultra Sport (yeah I know, shame on me) dramatically changes size with different air pressure, limiting you initially to about 65 psi for it to fit.

The current plan which seems to change every 10min is to compare 25 to 25 on the two bikes and then try wider and various tire pressures on the new bike. 25/25, 25/28, 28/28, 28/30. Tires are easy for me to get.

I could do 25/28 as a baseline

One thing I thought of doing but probably won’t is run Vittoria’s all summer to see if puncture resistance is high. If I run 4 months without a flat and they are faster on a final test, they would be my choice. But that could get expensive since I have access to 5000TT easily. I will eventually run one vs the other but I won’t have puncture resistance or all flavors.

6

Fantastic!!

Will follow along for sure

Which device are you using to measure ?

7

Fantastic!!

Will follow along for sure

Which device are you using to measure ?

LeGizmo ( French for the Gizmo :slight_smile: )

8

What aerobar/extensions do you plan on trying for the cervelo? Will you be swapping these in and out or just picking one and sticking with it? Obviously purchasing multiple different aerobars gets pricey.

9

What aerobar/extensions do you plan on trying for the cervelo? Will you be swapping these in and out or just picking one and sticking with it? Obviously purchasing multiple different aerobars gets pricey.

Once I get the cervelo to AXS it will be really easy to move the asc43 extensions over since no cabling

I have 0 data on it but I never thought basebar would be significant. Maybe I need to prove it to myself. I could move PD basebar from Scott or invest in a reasonable cost basebar. Basebar are not easy ABBA testing so I must be sure my data is repeatable day to day which is has been in the past.

Now that I look at the cervelo basebar (zipp) I am not too excited.

10

Basebar are not easy ABBA testing so I must be sure my data is repeatable day to day which is has been in the past.

They are if you accept that brakes are for wimps
If you do value your health, then splitters could enable you to swap the cockpit and retain braking
Just don’t rush to swap those tektro calipers out for hydros

Now that I look at the cervelo basebar (zipp) I am not too excited.

It’s not exciting, I’m sure you can find something nicer.

11

At the very end I am going to benchmark a World Tour bike (I have 2 types at my disposal) against my fixed up P Series.

What if the P3 or P series is as fast when optimized than an optimized WT bike? (i’m guessing the Hanzo?)

Will WT teams scream in horror?

What if you can’t make the P series faster than the Plasma 3?

I feel like my Plasma 3 (now Hanginon’s) when I sold it to the person who sold it to Hanginon, was about as optimized as possible or so I thought. The only thing left for it was an oversized, aero rear pulley. In the aero bike shoot out we did, based on the data I collected on the Plasma 3 over multiple sessions, it would have tied or slightly beaten the Premier Tactical. It was slower at 0, then beat it by ~ 2w in 2 of the 3 following yaw angles. -5, -7.5, -10. I don’t remember which angles though.

At races when i walked the racks be it USATAGNC or 70.3’s I never thought there were more than 5 bikes out of 250 that were more optimized than my Plasma 3.

If anyone has ideas to try along the path, I’d be happy to incorporate them Don’t let Glenn go to the club!

12

What if the P3 or P series is as fast when optimized than an optimized WT bike? (i’m guessing the Hanzo?)

Will WT teams scream in horror?

I have no doubt the WT bike will be faster. The question is “by how much”.

1sec every 180km stage of the tour de France adds up to 21seconds so it makes sense to spend a lot to get 1sec on 180km. This exercise is more “is 10seconds on a HIM worth 2k to me”. The exercise is to try an quantify it all so you can make intelligent decisions. That being said, even WT teams make measured compromises. “This helmet costs me 4w but pays me $1m a year I put towards altitude camps”.

Part of this was instigated by that article I showed you on how to get 11mins on a HIM. I realized a lot of people are going to do the wrong steps.

If it pisses off a vendor i have plan B with access to other bikes. That JV P5D for example belongs to a rider that rode for them. Maybe that. If I have to buy a top of the line Scott, well the wife will have to understand it was for science !!!

There are many claims I suspect are absolute BS, I want to prove to myself to what extent. I remember reading some of the CRR claims made on the front page and said to myself “that can’t be right”. So I tried it.

Based on the analysis of some your tests, we know the big watts will be position. I will document some position changes at first.

What if you can’t make the P series faster than the Plasma 3?

My guess is identically configured they will be very close for me. Then it will be interesting to play with tire width which the plasma is limited, but I suspect will be negligeable.

First ride today ! Shit forgot the speed sensor…just kidding.

13

This will be a fun follow along. I’m excited to watch as this progresses.

14

Part of this was instigated by that article I showed you on how to get 11mins on a HIM. I realized a lot of people are going to do the wrong steps.

Do you mind sharing a link? I love to do things wrong.

15

Great idea!

Did you come up with how to actually test them head to head? Same course, similar conditions, trying to hold same watts?

I just got new bike too and want to test it against my old cervelo p5-three and trying to figure out test framework. Outside of tunnel and no aero sensors it will probably be quite unscientific. I just need to justify that ridiculous cost I just spent on Trek Speedconcept :)))

16

Part of this was instigated by that article I showed you on how to get 11mins on a HIM. I realized a lot of people are going to do the wrong steps.

Do you mind sharing a link? I love to do things wrong.

The article hasn’t been published yet. I sent a copy to Brian since he name was mentioned in it. When it published I’ll send you a copy. It was basically the steps in an optimization and what one could expect from the various steps. “Wrong steps” is probably the wrong term. If the goal was 11mins of savings, I suspect an entry level to P5D would be a small portion of that. I just want to do a real world, but N=1 example.

I have to ride the TT bike for other reasons so I matter as well do a few experiments at once.

17

Great idea!

Did you come up with how to actually test them head to head? Same course, similar conditions, trying to hold same watts?

I just got new bike too and want to test it against my old cervelo p5-three and trying to figure out test framework. Outside of tunnel and no aero sensors it will probably be quite unscientific. I just need to justify that ridiculous cost I just spent on Trek Speedconcept :)))

I have access to sensors and instrumentation so I am at a bit of an advantage.

I will most likely do a lot of the same course, but I will also do race courses.

In the past I have had very repeatable day to day, venue to venue results but I will make sure I will bring in the reference bike now and then to make sure all is Kosher.

As for the ridiculous cost, YOLO…my neighbour was going on and on about his Tesla Plaid (I had to look it up). Some people spend 4k on a set of wheels, some people spend 4k on a smart seat warmer (bun toaster).

18

This will be a fun follow along. I’m excited to watch as this progresses.

As a local you can visualize this. All done in the very exotic location of Kazabazua and the OBC Thursday night TT

I paid full retail for it Fully Cycle were awesome getting it to me and assembled it almost over night. Shut out when deserved

I also plan to do some RR testing on the IM Canada/Ottawa course. I needed a BAD road. I found one,

19

So glad you are doing this. I have a Trek SC Gen 2 and have been debating about “upgrading” to the Gen 3 SC. I then thought about the P-Series due to the cost. I don’t love the look of the bike like I do my SC2 or the SC3 I want.

But, if you can get it to produce good numbers I’ll do what you are doing. I can “afford” a SC3, but like you, can’t justify the crazy cost.

20

Very cool. I have a 2020 P-Series that I’ve slowly upgraded over the years. Fully hidden and internal cables, aero cockpit, the works. A very capable bike and I’m interested to see how it tests and compares.