Motion control wearers in racing flats?

Triathlon Forum
1

The concept of a minimal shoe with a small heel to toe drop and a low rise overall really interests me. The only problem is I’m a solid overpronator. I wouldn’t say severe, but enough that I use a dedicated MC shoe (Asics Foundation VI and Brooks Addiction 6) for my long runs and an Adrenaline for my shorter runs (10k and less).

This year I’ve really focused on form and stride, and I think I’ve greatly improved in these areas. Its now almost habit that I strike in the midfoot, toe off “through the big toe”, and getting closer to a 90 spm cadence.

So I look at my MC shoes and see all the clunky doo-dads, rollbars, dual density such and such, and really wonder how much that’s benefiting me if I’m striking on the midfoot and improving my stride. I know racing flats are on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, but do any of you MC wearers use them? Are they only for the biomechanicaly efficient?

Specifically the DS-Racer looks like it packs a few stability features while maintaining a low profile.

My plan in the offseason, after the Marine Corps, is to build a super solid base, continue to up the mileage and strengthen the foot and supporting muscles and eventually get into a shoe that’s on the fence between MC and stability classifications, like the Brooks Trance (although the Foundations and Addictions come close).

Obviously injury avoidance is a priority, and getting used to the flats would in itself take a bit of tempering. I also plan to build in some barefoot running in the offseason. However, I feel there is an upside in that a lighter shoe by about 30-40% (MC shoes I’m wearing now are ~12+ oz (size 9), could help with less achilles strain.

2

I’ve transitioned from motion control down to a medium stability shoe. I overpronate, have pretty flat feet. I’m far more comfy now in the stability shoes, and when I go back to the motion controls for the heck of it, they feel heavy and clunky. So… I like it.

Now I have trouble with my toes. Separate thread on that later.

3

I train in the Kayano and love it. It is the first shoe that has really worked for me with no pain or injuries for a couple of years now. I have raced a few 5ks in my DS Racers with great satisfaction. I weigh about 215, so I don’t think I would use them for anything longer than maybe a 10k. I may get a pair of 2100s for longer races.

4

I overprontate pretty well, use orthotics in stability shoes. I go with stability because my form is gradually getting better and i need the flexibility in the shoe for faster smother turnover. I really like the Adidas Supernova control and would wear the Kayano if it wasn’t so expensive but is a great shoe.

As for racing flats I use the Brooks Racer ST, the Saucony Fasttwitch in the Endurance model, NB RC750, and Adidas Supernova Competition 2005 all look like shoes you could try for some stability. I also say that since you are only using these shoes on occassions for a short amount of time you can probalby get away with a racer with out to much trouble or injury. You can also have lightweight orthotics made for $70 if you want a little more stability (my dad makes them as a PT and I used them for a while till I decided is only 35min of running, and I can go without). Look at lightweight trainers also that have stability in them also for a racing shoe, they will provide a little more cushioning and will be better for longer races (1/2IM and up)

Branden

5

Interesting, my thoughts are quite in line with what you mentioned, especially about needing flexibility in the shoe for faster turnover. Running is by far my weakest, so I think the furthest I’d get away from a MC shoe is a light weight trainer for 1/2IMs and up.

You recommended some racing flats, thanks. How about light weight trainers?

6

Going back in time with the shoes I’ve tried: nike spikeless xc shoes (minimal), Minzuno MC (can’t remember the name), Asics Koji, Asics Kayano

I ran with and without, in each of the stability/MC shoes, custom made orthotics (3 different pairs actually). I couldn’t ever run in those shoes without getting injured. I couldn’t run in a standard shoe without getting injured - which is why I tried those shoes/orthotics.

Since I switched to the minimal shoes this past March, life as a runner has been amazing. Previously I couldn’t run more than 8 - 10 miles per week without my shins and knees going ape shit on me. Now I am running around 30 mpw. I currently have no knee or shin pain. ITB is non-existant. I run anywhere from 6:30 min/mile on my short fast runs - 8:30 min/mile on my long runs over 1.5 hours. 99% on pavement. So, for me, running in minimal shoes has been the ticket, I can’t run in anything else.

I’ve just gone over 300 miles this past week. The first 100 miles were a bear, and I hurt myself twice (muscles/tendons in my feet) and had to take 2-3 weeks off both times. The next 200 miles was okay, but my calves would complain quite a bit in the first couple of miles. Once I hit 300 though, things have been quite comfortable. I’m noticing increasing aerobic fitness, and my form is more consistent on day to day runs, i.e. it doesn’t take my body a few miles to settle in on the “right” form. I start out from the gun feeling very smooth and efficient. Besides this, I noticed something very interesting on a run with my wife the other day. My wife is pretty light, ~ 110lbs, and is tall and thin. I am about 4-5 inches taller and outweigh her by 45lbs. I couldn’t believe how much louder her footstrike was compared to mine. We’ve been running together off and on for the last 5 years - I’ve always had a louder foot strike. Not sure if it means that much, but it’s interesting just the same.

I’ve observed that I have to keep a cadence above 180 bpm, otherwise my body starts hurting again. Another thing is that dropping the weight off the shoes, immediately took 20 - 30 secs per mile off of my pace. At least it did when I first started and was running much more slowly (9:00 - 10:00 min/mile). Finally, it is my opinion that running in the minimal shoes allows my foot/body to strike in a better position for impact, and also allows me to hit 180 bpm more easily than in the MC shoes.

That’s just my experience. I’ve posted about this for the past few months as I’ve been trying this out, so if you do a search for my username you can see the numerous posts I’ve made on the subject. Not sure if it’s for everyone, but it’s been good to me so far.

If you have any questions about my experiences, just let me know,

Jack

7

Hey,

I’m a big guy with all sorts of overpronation issues. I was never able to get comfortable using motion control shoes, continuous injuries etc. Got orthotics made, put them in neutral shoes, problem solved.

I recently tried going with more minimalist shoes (New Balance 900’s). I was definitely faster, and did not develop any new problems. HOWEVER, this was with orthotics, which were doing all the motion control for me. The other issue is that the minimalist shoes break down quickly, and need to be replaced often. I needed to replace them every 200 miles or so…then again I am 6’4 220 lbs, so YMMV.

You also need to consider your need for cushioning…there ain’t much in shoes like the 900!

I have since switched back to a beefier, neutral shoe (NB 1060…neutral version of the 1050). Very comfortable, pretty light, good cushioning. Overall, a nice balance of everything. I’ll reserve the lighter 900’s for racing or track work from now on.

My advice would be to look into orthotics. They are built to correct YOUR mechanics, whereas motion control shoes are more generic. (In fact, I have had a number of patients with problems made worse with cumbersome shoes). Then, you stick the orthotics into any neutral shoe you like and you are good to go.

For what it’s worth,

Phil

p.s. there is research that shows lighter shoes = faster running. Basically, adding weight to the shoe is the same as adding 2-4 times that weight to the body. (Can’t remember the exact reference, but it is cited in Astrand, if someone has that text laying around).

8

Very interesting Jack, what shoes do you currently use now??

Thanks for your insight Philbert, I think I will look into orthotics. The thinking here would be to get the control form the orthotics and ease back on the control features on the shoe itself. Leaving me with control thats made for me and a minimal or a lightweight shoe.

Thanks guys!

9

“Very interesting Jack, what shoes do you currently use now??”

I’m still in the nike spikeless cross-country shoes. 300+ miles in them, and they still have a ton more to go. There’s no stability or cushioning in them to lose, so I will only have to replace them when the tread wears through. Best $45 I ever spent. Note that I don’t wear any orthotics when I run - I only used those in my “standard” shoes.

I’m off to go running…

Jack

10

I have always been told that I overpronate. What does overpronate mean?

11

I used to own a specialty running store so I had access to every model that we stocked (over 70 trainers & racers) and although I have a very flat foot I’ve found that by changing the way I run (check out the book Chi Running by Danny Dreyer) I was able to move away from the heavy stability shoes that I used to wear and I now run exclusively in lightweight trainers (Mizuno Precision/ 1st gen. Maverick) or “built up” flats (Asics DS-Racers or Tiger Paws). With my flat feet I used to be very predisposed to rolling my ankles and have found that wearing shoes that have lower heels and are therefore closer to the ground has helped tremendously.

If your body can handle it (there is a period of adaptation) you may benefit from it. Try it and report back.

Miguel in the 'No…El Tribato

12

Excellent, you know when you post and want to hear a certain type of response? Well thats what I wanted to hear. I can’t wait till the offseason and build up some monster base.

13

I have a high arch and have never used motion-control shoes, but can address the need or lack thereof for shoes with a lot of cushion.

I ran about 750 miles last winter in Nov., Dec. and Jan. almost exclusively in adidas Bostons. I loved those shoes, but after 250 miles I could definitely feel the pounding. At 250 miles a month that meant a new pair every month. After reading a bit from some people on slowtwitch (namely Ashburn) who ran in flats all the time, I decided to try it following my race at LA Marathon.

After a week off I started to build the miles back up wearing only old racing flats or barefoot on the golf course behind my house (not rich, just live on a military base). I never again felt the need for a shoe with more cushioning. I averaged about 150 miles a month in March, April, and May wearing flats or no shoes at all. That is not high mileage, so I was interested what would happen when I deployed and didn’t have a bike.

In the past six weeks I have built up to 60 miles a week alternating between a pair of Brooks T3s with the insole ripped out and a pair of Asics (not sure the model) that weigh about 8 ounces. I’m not sure what the recommended mileage is on the T3, but I’m pretty sure I have double or tripled it so far. Yesterday I ran 1:15 in the T3s and this morning 1:20 in the Asics with the insole removed. The only problem I have here is the gravel rocks that are everywhere. With the insoles removed there is nothing between you and the road, so sharp little rocks hurt your feet.

The lack of cushioning has not been a problem. Just don’t rush your body during adaptation. Frankly, I liked running barefoot even more. I was doing 5x200 meter strides at the end of my runs and the turnover on grass with no shoes is the most incredible feeling. Awesome.

Your feet adapt to the amount of cushioning that you give them. Man was all barefoot sometime in the past. Of course, he wasn’t running barefoot on hard surfaces, so you either need to have feet with soles like leather or wear a little something to protect your skin from the sharp stuff.

Chad