some of you read the article on cramping on the front page. one intriguing home remedy is pickle juice, which even in the lab seems to abate the cramp sooner than alternatives. it seems to be the vinegar, and vinegar has also been tested and seems to work. there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence that apple cider vinegar abates menstrual cramps and maybe it’s the same mechanism. it’s not electrolyte-related. there’s no time for anything in vinegar or pickle juice to empty the stomach. it’s more than likely some neurological reaction.
in my reading i came across a number of articles indicating that nose drops of vinegar was an effective cure for persistent hiccups. in one article: “The administration of intranasal vinegar is a safe and handy method to stimulate dorsal wall of nasopharynx.” meanwhile, vinegar stops cramps because, some are saying, it "triggers a reflex in the oropharyngeal at the back of the mouth.
so, vinegar stimulates the oropharynx and stops cramps, the nasopharynx and stops hiccups. each of which is, simply, a muscle spasm.
the other article i found interesting is not a cure for a cramp, but it’s about cramp prevention, using that compex you’ve got sitting around. muscle stim, while the calf is already shortened. i’m not sure about this. but i thought back to high school, when i did a lot of toe raises, really shortening the calf, much more than when i run. i got a pretty good burn when i did those. more than when i run. i never got calf cramps when i was younger.
back to the pickle juice, or the apple cider vinegar. is it worthwhile just having some along? 2.5oz i am reading. pretty small amount. anybody out there just carry this, in a gel flask or something?
I get calf cramps in 2+ hour road races, tried taking pickle juice in gel flasks, the issue is you really need a water bottle to prevent leakage, gel flasks seem to need to be super tight to be liquid proof ( after trying sample size = 2). Also, I can chug pickle juice out of the fridge, but swallowing that during a mass start race is a bit of a challenge. Maybe just carrying a couple of pickles with you in a baggie would work just as well, or better, logistics wise.
Would apple cider vinegar tablets do the trick? Much easier to carry then a liquid form. Then again, would ingestion of 2 500mg apple cider vinegar tablets per day provide the needed dosage?
I have used pickle juice after workouts a bunch of times and it always seems to work. I always though it was the sodium in the juice, isn’t there like a ton of it in the juice? Maybe mistaken, but if not, then vinegar it is.
Would apple cider vinegar tablets do the trick? Much easier to carry then a liquid form. Then again, would ingestion of 2 500mg apple cider vinegar tablets per day provide the needed dosage?
See above…
it "triggers a reflex in the oropharyngeal at the back of the mouth.
so, vinegar stimulates the oropharynx and stops cramps,
Just FYI, my two weeks cold turkey off coffee + magnesium supplementation, has, so far, worked really well for me. I spent 90 minutes in the heat in a circuit race, 30 minutes redlined in a 2-man break, no cramps… I actually got dehydrated because I stupidly only brought one bottle, but that didn’t seem to affect me at all, until after the ride.
I’ll have a better test this weekend with a mountain/desert epic ride.
I’ve tried mustard packets ( I assume they have vinegar in them as well) with good success. They are easy to carry , much like a gel. Start to cramp, squirt one straight in your mouth. Cramp goes away. Not a terrible taste , not great. They are easy enough to find if you look for them
I’ve tried mustard packets ( I assume they have vinegar in them as well) with good success. They are easy to carry , much like a gel. Start to cramp, squirt one straight in your mouth. Cramp goes away. Not a terrible taste , not great. They are easy enough to find if you look for them
Packets of mustard or vinegar? Maybe a trip to the fast food joint is in order…
One of the plausible theories on the etiology cramping I’ve heard is that that it can be caused by insufficient levels of acetylcholine. Vinegar products (mustard, pickle juice, etc.) contain aceitic acid which can act a a precursor to acetylcholine. Mustard packets did seem to help with the severity and duration of my cramps in my last 70.3
I’ve been fighting this fight for a decade. I was sweat tested in January and lost 5400mg of sodium in 71 ounces of sweat when running at threshold for 1 hour - for perspective I’m 46 and weigh 140 lbs. I mention these results, since there are mixed views on sodium loss and cramping. Anyway, the test was conducted by Dr. Sandra Godek (http://www.wcupa.edu/...ences/heat/about.asp), who was behind the pickle juice studies.
Interestingly, she developed a product (Levelen) that uses apple cider vinegar powder as one of their ingredients. (http://levelen.com/...entm-neutral-flavor/). I haven’t checked, but I wonder if any other electrolyte drinks contain this ingredient?
I’ve tried mustard packets ( I assume they have vinegar in them as well) with good success. They are easy to carry , much like a gel. Start to cramp, squirt one straight in your mouth. Cramp goes away. Not a terrible taste , not great. They are easy enough to find if you look for them
Out of curiosity, why did you choose mustard? Wouldn’t ketchup work as well? I’m pretty sure it contains vinegar too.
Excellent front page article, especially the discussion about magnesium. A frustrating thing about trying to hit a daily target intake is getting reliable info about quantities in food.
I did a double take at your reported 600 mg per half cup, as I’d always thought it to be 300 mg for that amount. But then I googled around and found seemingly credible information for both. Eating a half cup/day is not really a big deal–I don’t think I’d enjoy a full cup however.
I’d guess the discrepancy comes from various strains of pumpkin that have been tested. Which leaves us a bit in the dark as to what we’re actually eating. So, yes, it’s probably a good idea to get magnesium from a wide variety of sources.
Dan, you may want to listen to IM Talk #411 w/ Tim Noakes…he specifically discusses using pickle juice and cramping. He believes that cramps are a neural reflex in the muscle (perhaps as injury prevention or as a symptom of fatigue) and that putting salt directly on your tongue, or pickle juice, counteracts the neural reflex that caused the cramp.
Personal side note…I was out for my long run about 10 days ago and my right calf cramped hard. I have never had cramping issues and I was only 2.5 miles into a 10 mile run. It has not eased since then and I have now been diagnosed with a calf strain. SO could the cramp have been a neurological reaction to the strain, preventing me from further injury? Dunno…but the symptoms have clearly gone on longer than a “normal” cramp.
your situation is what causes me to think that it’s typically not as simple as “you went too hard for your fitness level.” let’s say that instead of a 10mi run it was a 3mi run, which you did at your 10mi run pace. you’d have cramped 2.5mi into that pretty easy 3mi run. how could you be accused of being too ambitious in your training?
the literature repeatedly debunks the notion that dehydration causes cramps. so, why you cramped is a question, but i think certain things can be ruled out.
what’s clear about the pickle juice is that it’s NOT giving you electrolytes. that’s not the mechanism. it’s been studied. there’s no way that any salt cation can get from your stomach to the location of your cramp in 90 seconds. it’s a neurological reaction. the questions to me are:
is it your oro- or nasopharynx that is the target receptor that reacts to the stimulus and eases the cramp?
what is the stimulus? vinegar? some are mentioning mustard and this has been studied, and also works. mustard, apple cider vinegar, pickle juice all have vinegar in common. is it vinegar? or any of a number of pungent stimuli?
how do you reproduce that pungent stimulus in something easy to carry with you during training and racing?
I’d guess the discrepancy comes from various strains of pumpkin that have been tested. Which leaves us a bit in the dark as to what we’re actually eating. So, yes, it’s probably a good idea to get magnesium from a wide variety of sources.//
Pretty sure low magnesium was a big factor in my heart trouble, my doc said to take it with calcium and zinc. Said it had a better absorption rate than just straight mag. He is not the kind to suggest many supplements, but said that over the last 40 years a lot of his athletes had really good luck with that combo. I just get the trader joes mix, and it has worked well to keep my levels in the mid range. I also did a test and found out that i piss out about twice as much as a normal person, so probably the reason i’m always low without supplement. That and like dan, i did not eat a lot of mag rich foods. Maybe give the seeds a try, i think i liked them when i did try them.
***your situation is what causes me to think that it’s typically not as simple as “you went too hard for your fitness level.” let’s say that instead of a 10mi run it was a 3mi run, which you did at your 10mi run pace. you’d have cramped 2.5mi into that pretty easy 3mi run. how could you be accused of being too ambitious in your training? ***
the literature repeatedly debunks the notion that dehydration causes cramps. so, why you cramped is a question, but i think certain things can be ruled out.
what’s clear about the pickle juice is that it’s NOT giving you electrolytes. that’s not the mechanism. it’s been studied. there’s no way that any salt cation can get from your stomach to the location of your cramp in 90 seconds. it’s a neurological reaction. the questions to me are:
is it your oro- or nasopharynx that is the target receptor that reacts to the stimulus and eases the cramp?
what is the stimulus? vinegar? some are mentioning mustard and this has been studied, and also works. mustard, apple cider vinegar, pickle juice all have vinegar in common. is it vinegar? or any of a number of pungent stimuli?
how do you reproduce that pungent stimulus in something easy to carry with you during training and racing?
Agreed…it clearly wasn’t fatigue (or dehydration), and laying it out as you did in re: to a 3 mile run helps exemplify this. I was running at a very easy pace and felt fine until the cramp.
Now, could it have been “cumulative fatgue” for the week? Dunno…an interesting proposition, I guess. I wish I had some vinegar or pickle juice with me when it occurred to have seen what happened.
I’ve got an ultrarunner buddy who spikes his camelbak with apple cider vinegar because it tastes better than just water and also because it “treats him better” in a general sense.