Michigan football team, and how many hours college swimmers train

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.

wow, its amazing the web of insanity people will weave in order to avoid things that can’t be avoided anyway.

=)

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.
The exact same we that we got around some of the rules that hampered our training for rowing, since it’s not allowable to have mandatory practice year-round for a spring sport. We had “optional” practices. These practices were “optional” in the same way that it was “optional” for a coach to choose you for a boat or for you to go race, etc. Happens in pretty much every sport - “Captain’s practices,” “unsupervised workouts,” etc. We never broke the 20hr rule for rowing, but we certainly flexed the rules on winter training in terms of it being “required” training, just as every other top program did. That was my understanding for the case with swimmers as well - a certain number of practices were “Captain’s practices” and those did not count towards the 20 hour rule. Generally, though, I think it was just as well. If, for example, the university had shut the boathouse down, then we all would have just gone to the gym or figured out some other option - totally without supervision - which would have been terrible. I would wager that every single Div1 program out there breaks at least one NCAA rule.

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.
I’m guessing that part of each practice is designated as “conditioning activity”

17.1.6.2.4 Conditioning Activities. Conditioning drills per Bylaw 17.1.6.2 that may simulate game
activities are permissible, provided no offensive or defensive alignments are set up and no equipment related
to the sport is used. In ice hockey, a student-athlete may be involved in on-ice conditioning activities,
provided no equipment other than skates is used. In swimming and diving, a student-athlete may be
involved in in-pool conditioning activities and swim-specific equipment (e.g., starting blocks, kickboards,
pull buoys) may be used. (Revised: 4/28/05 effective 8/1/05)

John

Looks like they need to do something to try to beat Ohio State :wink:
.

If conditioning activities don’t count, then I guess they are spending no time per week in practice. That’s absurd even by the standards of the NCAA.

If conditioning activities don’t count, then I guess they are spending no time per week in practice. That’s absurd even by the standards of the NCAA.
20 x 100 on 1:05. That would be part of practice time since it simulates the race environment. 20x100 pull on 1:10 would be conditioning/skill. I don’t make the rules, that’s just the way that I’m reading it.

You really think that college level football players are only spending 20 hours a week on football? Weightroom activity, watching films, studying game books, all of those fall outside the hour practice count (afaict, I didn’t read all the way through the 50 pages on counting hours and season limits).

So, you have 2 hours of squad drills/scrimmage, 2 hours of weightroom, 1 hour of skill drills (blocking dummies, etc), 2 hours of film, and it counts as 2 hours of “practice” time.

Heh, as long as you don’t have equipment on the ice, you could drill the hockey players 5 hours a day and not have it count. :wink:

John

I swam when there were no limits but for any individual sport the rule is loose enough you can drive a truck through it so I doubt it has any impact whatsoever on swimming. (actually I heard a credible expert state last week that of the 50+ hours cited in the Free Press article on U of M, at most they were only 1.5 hours per week over the limit when you apply the definitions of countable and non countable)

BAck to swimming - You get 20 hours a week; 4 hours per day of “countable” hours. Supervised practices and meets count. “Voluntary” unsupervised activities do not. If you don’t have a meet in a given week, 2 or 3 “voluntary” morning practices would be all you would need to come within the rule and still train 25+ hours a week. Actually, swim coaches may love this rule since it can mean they get to sleep in a couple days a week . . . . Football is much tougher since it is alot harder to run an effective workout or other study without coaches. Swimming all you have to do is put something on a blackboard and let the swimmers know what time the pool will be unlocked. If someone is not willing to workout voluntarily and do the necessary work unsupervised they are not a Division I athlete so its kind of moot point.

Here is the definition of “voluntary” ie uncounted hours - 17.02.13 V oluntary Athletically Related Activities. In order for any athletically related activity to be considered “voluntary,” all of the following conditions must be met: (Adopted: 4/18/01) (a) The student-athlete must not be required to report back to a coach or other athletics department staff member (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) any information related to the activity. In addition, no athletics department staff member who observes the activity (e.g., strength coach, trainer, manager) may report back to the student-athlete’s coach any information related to the activity; (b) The activity must be initiated and requested solely by the student-athlete. Neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may require the student-athlete to participate in the activity at any time. However, it is permissible for an athletics department staff member to provide information to student-athletes related to available opportunities for participating in voluntary activities (e.g., times when the strength and conditioning coach will be on duty in the weight room or on the track). In addition, for students who have initiated a request to engage in voluntary activities, the institution or an athletics department staff member may assign specific times for student-athletes to use institutional facilities for such purposes and inform the student-athletes of the time in advance; (c) The student-athlete’s attendance and participation in the activity (or lack thereof ) may not be recorded for the purposes of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student-athletes; and (d) The student-athlete may not be subjected to penalty if he or she elects not to participate in the activity. In addition, neither the institution nor any athletics department staff member may provide recognition or incentives (e.g., awards) to a student-athlete based on his or her attendance or performance in the activity.
17.1.6.2.2 and 17.1.6.2.3]. (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04)

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGG

 20 x 100 on 1:05. 

John

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.
The exact same we that we got around some of the rules that hampered our training for rowing, since it’s not allowable to have mandatory practice year-round for a spring sport. We had “optional” practices. These practices were “optional” in the same way that it was “optional” for a coach to choose you for a boat or for you to go race, etc. Happens in pretty much every sport - “Captain’s practices,” “unsupervised workouts,” etc. We never broke the 20hr rule for rowing, but we certainly flexed the rules on winter training in terms of it being “required” training, just as every other top program did. That was my understanding for the case with swimmers as well - a certain number of practices were “Captain’s practices” and those did not count towards the 20 hour rule. Generally, though, I think it was just as well. If, for example, the university had shut the boathouse down, then we all would have just gone to the gym or figured out some other option - totally without supervision - which would have been terrible. I would wager that every single Div1 program out there breaks at least one NCAA rule.
Is rowing considered a Spring-only sport? Doesn’t Princeton race in the Fall? Princeton Chase? Charles? And does NCAA have jurisdiction over Men’s Rowing? I know women’s rowing programs (some) are D1 programs, but seems that most men’s programs aren’t. In fact, I’m not sure if any Men’s Rowing programs are D1, I could be wrong on that one. Although, NCAA rules may still apply.

Sorry for sidetracking, just interesting. I know there is no way some of the crews out there are as fast as they are on < 20 hrs of work/week. That’s for sure.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGG

 20 x 100 on 1:05.  

John

 Shit, Jack, any decent HIGH SCHOOL 100m specialist should be able to do that without really breaking a sweat.

Our new years set in 1985 (My senior year) was 85 x 100 on…1:20? 1:15? something like that. By about 2500 in, you were pretty much just swimming straight.

John

I swam D3 under the 20 hour rule, and if you were serious, you made most or all the ‘voluntary’ practices and went well over that in a typical week when you had a meet.

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.
The exact same we that we got around some of the rules that hampered our training for rowing, since it’s not allowable to have mandatory practice year-round for a spring sport. We had “optional” practices. These practices were “optional” in the same way that it was “optional” for a coach to choose you for a boat or for you to go race, etc. Happens in pretty much every sport - “Captain’s practices,” “unsupervised workouts,” etc. We never broke the 20hr rule for rowing, but we certainly flexed the rules on winter training in terms of it being “required” training, just as every other top program did. That was my understanding for the case with swimmers as well - a certain number of practices were “Captain’s practices” and those did not count towards the 20 hour rule. Generally, though, I think it was just as well. If, for example, the university had shut the boathouse down, then we all would have just gone to the gym or figured out some other option - totally without supervision - which would have been terrible. I would wager that every single Div1 program out there breaks at least one NCAA rule.
Is rowing considered a Spring-only sport? Doesn’t Princeton race in the Fall? Princeton Chase? Charles? And does NCAA have jurisdiction over Men’s Rowing? I know women’s rowing programs (some) are D1 programs, but seems that most men’s programs aren’t. In fact, I’m not sure if any Men’s Rowing programs are D1, I could be wrong on that one. Although, NCAA rules may still apply.

Sorry for sidetracking, just interesting. I know there is no way some of the crews out there are as fast as they are on < 20 hrs of work/week. That’s for sure.
Yes, rowing is considered a spring sport. There are fall races, but there are no provisions for fall racing being part of the official season. The NCAA does not have jurisdiction over men’s (lwt or hwt) or women’s lwt crew. BUT, the EARC/IRA adopts a modified version of NCAA rules for rowing (i.e., the 20 hour rule is still in effect) that also includes some rowing specific additions - Jan 20th (IIRC) as the first day of “on water” practice for example. So technically, the men only have to follow IRA (and/or EARC) rules.

Regardless, though, we could just as easily be talking about Women’s Varsity rowing which is NCAA, and which didn’t do anything differently than the three other programs in the boathouse which were not.

There are plenty of spring sports that have “exhibition” seasons in the fall. Lacrosse did as well. But it’s not an official part of the season. The Head Races are probably more official than anything else, but they don’t serve to influence IRA rankings, etc., since they are not technically part of the season. I do believe there are provisos for “off season” training, but again, it’s basically an adoption of the NCAA “voluntary” rules.

I don’t really remember. We had some vague discussions with our coach about it. As far as I was concerned, rowing was a 12-month sport, since I rowed almost all summer as well. And if someone on the team had decided to act on the fact that practices were voluntary in the winter, I would probably have been the first person on the team to disown knowing them. The only rule I ever remember really following hard and fast was when we could first be on the water. That was usually because we ALWAYS got on the water as soon as possible; I remember water freezing on my oar during the recovery during some of our first rows.

 Shit, Jack, any decent HIGH SCHOOL 100m specialist should be able to do that without really breaking a sweat.

i need more practice

im talkin bout…PRACTICE

 Is rowing considered a Spring-only sport?  Doesn't Princeton race in the Fall?  Princeton Chase?  Charles? And does NCAA have jurisdiction over Men's Rowing?  I know women's rowing programs (some) are D1 programs, but seems that most men's programs aren't.  In fact, I'm not sure if any Men's Rowing programs are D1, I could be wrong on that one.  Although, NCAA rules may still apply.   

Sorry for sidetracking, just interesting. I know there is no way some of the crews out there are as fast as they are on < 20 hrs of work/week. That’s for sure.
NCAA governs all Division I, II, and III sports. Rowing, rugby, lacrosse, etc. I’m not sure how schools get classified in various sports, but they list rowing. After you drop below NCAA radar you hit NAIA, NJCAA, etc. About the only sports that aren’t regulated in some fashion or another are the “club” sports, which are sponsored very little by the school as far as support.

IIRC, to be a club sport/team at ASU, all you need is a faculty member willing to be the sponsor.

John

Here in Michigan, there has been a lot of recent press about whether the Michigan football team has been breaking NCAA rules by training more than 20 hours per week in season and 8 hours per week out of season. Apparently, it is very complicated to count to 20 because some training counts and other training does not. Like if one coach is in the weightroom for safety purposes, it does not count, but if two or more are there it does.

Anyway. does anyone know how college swim teams manage to train enough and not break these rules? Or how they are following the NCAA rules when it seems that just about everyone that swims for the Michigan swim teams also swims for Club Wolverine all spring and summer, and all the Michigan coaches are also coaches for Club Wolverine? Just mentioning Michigan because I live here, the same obviously applies to Texas/Longhorn Aquatics and lots of other major college programs.
The exact same we that we got around some of the rules that hampered our training for rowing, since it’s not allowable to have mandatory practice year-round for a spring sport. We had “optional” practices. These practices were “optional” in the same way that it was “optional” for a coach to choose you for a boat or for you to go race, etc. Happens in pretty much every sport - “Captain’s practices,” “unsupervised workouts,” etc. We never broke the 20hr rule for rowing, but we certainly flexed the rules on winter training in terms of it being “required” training, just as every other top program did. That was my understanding for the case with swimmers as well - a certain number of practices were “Captain’s practices” and those did not count towards the 20 hour rule. Generally, though, I think it was just as well. If, for example, the university had shut the boathouse down, then we all would have just gone to the gym or figured out some other option - totally without supervision - which would have been terrible. I would wager that every single Div1 program out there breaks at least one NCAA rule.
Is rowing considered a Spring-only sport? Doesn’t Princeton race in the Fall? Princeton Chase? Charles? And does NCAA have jurisdiction over Men’s Rowing? I know women’s rowing programs (some) are D1 programs, but seems that most men’s programs aren’t. In fact, I’m not sure if any Men’s Rowing programs are D1, I could be wrong on that one. Although, NCAA rules may still apply.

Sorry for sidetracking, just interesting. I know there is no way some of the crews out there are as fast as they are on < 20 hrs of work/week. That’s for sure.
Yes, rowing is considered a spring sport. There are fall races, but there are no provisions for fall racing being part of the official season. The NCAA does not have jurisdiction over men’s (lwt or hwt) or women’s lwt crew. BUT, the EARC/IRA adopts a modified version of NCAA rules for rowing (i.e., the 20 hour rule is still in effect) that also includes some rowing specific additions - Jan 20th (IIRC) as the first day of “on water” practice for example. So technically, the men only have to follow IRA (and/or EARC) rules.

Regardless, though, we could just as easily be talking about Women’s Varsity rowing which is NCAA, and which didn’t do anything differently than the three other programs in the boathouse which were not.

There are plenty of spring sports that have “exhibition” seasons in the fall. Lacrosse did as well. But it’s not an official part of the season. The Head Races are probably more official than anything else, but they don’t serve to influence IRA rankings, etc., since they are not technically part of the season. I do believe there are provisos for “off season” training, but again, it’s basically an adoption of the NCAA “voluntary” rules.

I don’t really remember. We had some vague discussions with our coach about it. As far as I was concerned, rowing was a 12-month sport, since I rowed almost all summer as well. And if someone on the team had decided to act on the fact that practices were voluntary in the winter, I would probably have been the first person on the team to disown knowing them. The only rule I ever remember really following hard and fast was when we could first be on the water. That was usually because we ALWAYS got on the water as soon as possible; I remember water freezing on my oar during the recovery during some of our first rows.

Ah, that’s true. I forgot about EARC and IRA. I knew (but apparently wasn’t thinking) that they had adopted rules that mimicked NCAA rules. And of course no competitive D1 program (in any sport) adheres to every NCAA rule, much less the ‘20 hour’ rule.

As far as water freezing on the oar . . . . . glad it was you and not me. Being from Louisiana, we got cranky when we had to row in 40-50 degree weather. Of course, our lakes never froze and we could row throughout the year. :smiley:

Training under 20 hours a week may sound difficult for college swimming but it’s not impossible. I swam D1 and we could easily hit 10,000+ long course meters in three hours. It isn’t necessary to get tons of yardage in to have results. Quality vs quantity.

Training under 20 hours a week may sound difficult for college swimming but it’s not impossible. I swam D1 and we could easily hit 10,000+ long course meters in three hours. It isn’t necessary to get tons of yardage in to have results. Quality vs quantity.

Right, I understand 20 hours of actual swimming, in the pool work is a lot. I think we’re all talking about things that add onto that, weight room, etc.

I’m sure all good college football players or swimmers train more than the NCAA rule allows. (Heck, even age-group triathletes train more than 8-hours per week in the off-season.) For some reason, the press and U-M fans keep harping on this to justify the cheating that went on. The point should be that Michigan cheated - they received on unfair advantage over the other schools that follow the rules by having supervised practices and weight sessions triple above what was allowed. Possibiliy as a result, they are better prepared than their opponents. For some reason, this has been lost since the initial reports, and everyone is calling the Free Press story a “witch-hunt.” The good news is that Rodriguez’ job appears a bit safe for now - the program is not in complete shambles yet. Hopefully, he is given enough time to ignore recruiting the state of Michigan and bring in “his” players and really deteriorate the program. Add some NCAA probation, bad press regarding his business dealings with a booster who was banned from Clemson when he was offensive coordinator, and the last thing I would like to see happen is Rich Rodriguez get fired this year.

20 hours of actual training. I can’t say what other programs did for training but I know how often we trained. Whether it be lifting weights, dry land or swimming. Our weight workouts were always in the morning which made our morning swim workouts shorter.