So last Sunday, for my second marathon, I ran CIM (California International Marathon). The weather was perfect and it was a well run course but I ended up hitting the wall, hard, at about mile 23. My first marathon last spring, the Colorado Marathon, ended the same way. I was going for a 3:15 and finished 3:18:30 so it wasn’t a complete collapse but I lost all my time in the last 3 miles. So right now I’m trying to figure out what to do next time and would love to get some feedback.
Ok, for some details. Around mile 21 I start noticing that things are going south. Around mile 23 I start seeing stars. The periphery of my vision has flashing spots while the center area is still somewhat clear. This is accompanied by increasing dizziness. During CIM when I finally succumbed and walked for a short bit the stars completely took over my vision and I stumbled a few steps before things cleared up. After the CO marathon I thought this might be overheating because I didn’t think I had drank enough so I was pretty careful during CIM to get in lots of fluids. I’m now thinking this is a pretty serious bonk.
My nutrition during the race went off just as planned. I started off with 20 ounces of 1/2 EFS, 1/2 Gatorade. I downed this for the first 8 miles. I was carrying to gel flasks that had the equivalent of 8 Hammer Gels. My plan was to finish one, 4 gels, before mile 20 and then sip on the other. I figured I’d have some left. I’d guess at the end of the race I’d consumed the equivalent of 6 gels and the bottle. Overall probably 700-800 cals.
For training for both races I’ve followed the Pfitzinger 18/55 plan and trained for the 3:15 pace. My logs can be found here http://tinyurl.com/cxadevw which include garmin links to the races. As an indicator I ran the Heart of the Rockies half three weeks prior to the race getting a 1:33:30. From the calculators I’ve used that seems right on track, if not faster, than where I needed to be for a 3:15 full marathon. I will also point out that my training and the half marathon were at 5K feet altitude whereas CIM is at sea level.
So, my question is where to go from here. One could argue that I need more miles in my training plan but given my time isn’t that aggressive and my check-up races are on track I’m not sure thats the problem. Also my training is at altitude and at least CIM was at sea level. This should be a huge benefit (20 second per mile give or take). I’m left thinking what I really need to do is drop some pounds. I’m 6’1" and around 196 pounds right now. While I wouldn’t call myself lean, I’m not a plump 196 either. My tanita scale fluctuates between 11-12% body fat (i know they aren’t super accurate).
If you’ve made it this far, thanks. I’d love to hear suggestions on training/diet to push though mile 23 and finish relatively strong.
I would think losing weight would be a start - that’s like free speed. Otherwise, just gradually increase your miles, and stay consistent week in, week out for the entire year, not just for the 3-4 months before the marathon. If you followed the plan to a t, and hit all the key workouts, then it’s just a matter of increasing endurance so as to not blow up, but rather be able to speed up, over the last 10k. The most effective, non-bs way to do that is simply run a bit more than you were!
Well, dropping weight always helps in running. A lot. I’m at 7% on my tanita and I feel fat.
Leaving that aside, it seems that your nutrition is fine. I can finish a marathon strongly, actually negative split New York recently, on just on-course gatorade and two gels for the entire race.
My guess this is a fitness issue more than anything, but 55 mpw isn’t bad, but looking at your online log, it seems that you didn’t have a lot of weeks at that level. Could be wrong, but that seemed to be the case. So more mileage. More mileage at marathon pace and 1/2 marathon pace, too.
Did you go out too hard in CIM? Were you on/ahead/behind pace when things started coming apart?
As for the question on pace and if I went out too hard, I don’t think so. Here is the log of the race http://connect.garmin.com/splits/132947528 . If you ran exactly 26.2 a 3:15 would correspond to a 7:26 pace. Of course I always end up at 26.3 or 26.4 so I was figuring needing a 7:22 or so. My first mile was actually 7:40 due to crowding and then sped up a bit. The third mile was a bit fast but I believe that may have been more downhill. From there on out the pace it right on…till mile 24 where it falls apart.
I see where you mentioned your half race, sorry I initially missed it.
I think (in my completely uneducated opinion) that you probably finished where you were suppose to. You could have paced more conservatively and not hit the wall so hard, you would have finished stronger with the same overall time. 55 peak mpw is low on the marathon training side of things and that combined with your weight might have hurt you. I bet if you get a little leaner and build a bigger running base and average closer to 55mpw (as opposed to peaking there) then hitting sub 3:15 will be no question. It’s hard to know how many mpw we need but more is always better assuming you don’t get hurt. For a second marathon that’s a good time.
The log is a little tough to gather much from quickly - what was your average weekly mileage like over the last 3, 6, and 12 months? That will be a lot more telling than what your peak week(s) were.
For future logging, check out www.runpartner.com, or even the log on this site, though I’m partial to the former.
I don’t have exact numbers but training up for the CO Marathon Jan-May of this year I averaged around 45 miles/week. I’m really more of a cyclist and during the summer spend more time on the bike. I’d imagine I averaged around 20 miles/week through the summer with it picking up a bit before my 1/2 IM in August. Training for CIM began right after the 1/2 IM and during that time the average was again around 45 miles a week.
I went sub 3:15 in October. The last 10 weeks of my training prior to taper were mostly around the 70 mpw range. I felt a bit tired at the end of the marathon, but never anywhere near in hitting the wall. I’d like to believe that those 70 mpw training blocks were what got me to stay on pace in those last 10ks. I pop a gel once every 5 miles and always wash it down with Gatorade. Those sports drink at races are so watered down that they are all pretty much water to me.
First, the marathon is a merciless bitch and is never easy. I’ve run over 20 of them, finishing most of them sub 2:50. I’m far from elite, but can say that most experienced runners don’t trust the calculators for the marathon distance. The A standard for a strong seasoned well trained runner is double your half marathon time and add 10 minutes. Some go faster, but the average is probably closer to 15 minutes.
Ok, now how to improve. Step one, focus on getting faster at shorter distance. The best marathoners I know, simply moved up in distance. Some people move up quicker than others because they lack “fast twitch” muscle fibers and are more inclined to be more competitive at longer distances. Nonetheless, get in the best 10k - 1/2 marathon shape of your life.
Step two, mileage. 55 miles per week is nothing is you want to reach your max potential. Everyone has different volume thresholds that can be tolerated without injury, but ideally you want to average at least 55 per week and peak out higher.
Step three, drop some lbs. You’re a big dude and burn a ton of energy. At almost 200lbs, running 3:18 is seriously good. That’s a lot of mass to move 26 miles, no wonder you were dizzy. Try dropping 20lbs if lifestyle permits.
Lastly, race day approach. Best thing I ever heard was “if you don’t feel like you’re running too slow, you’re running too fast”. Good luck…
Great job. That’s a solid time for anyone, let alone a clyde.
Keep up with the Pfitz and move to 18/70. That will take you to another level.
One caveat - CIM is perhaps the fastest marathon course on the West Coast. Having met a lot of folks who ran PRs there, they were disappointed when they ran other marathons and came up 10, if not 15 minutes slower in similar shape. I’ve beaten sub3 CIM guys in a HM we ran together when I was pulling 3:15ish in the San Francisco (hillier) marathon, so you do have to adjust your expectations a bit if you plan on repeating such a PR at a race without such a favorable profile. (It is no longer counted for Olympic trials qualifier.)
Strong work though - keep it up. Marathons are friggin’ hard, even when you’re doing 100mpw.
its all about pace, i followed the Pfitz 55 plan too 3 years ago, ran first half in 1:25, died at mile 18 and finished 3:06, this year, i did no runs over 16 miles for over a year, and only ran about 40 a week, but did do 4-5 hour bike rides every weekend, signed up for a marathon at the last minute not trained at all for it according to the book, went through first half at 1:28, second half at 1:27 for a 2:55, no bonk, and actually no pain at all, as Pfitz stated, bonk or “hitting the wall” doesnt have to happen, if it does, its bad pacing, so basically, you are going out too fast
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I just had a question about your advice for Shaka999. How long do you think one needs to hold that 55 mpw average? Is it 4 months, 12 months? Also, how long do you feel that peak mileage should be done? Perhaps a month of peak mileage followed by a two week taper? Thanks, in 2012 I’m making my way back to a marathon after 9 years of being away from them.
I’ve averaged 55 mpw for 12 weeks prior to a 3 week taper. However, you need to build up to that mileage, which is going to require additional weeks depending on your start point. For example, if your currently running 30 mpw, than add about another 3-4 weeks to build up. It’s important to mention that 55 mpw is still on the low side for marathon training, but is about the mileage threshold (for most people) for hitting diminishing returns and increasing increasing risk.
Thanks for the advice everyone. Looks like I need to drop weight and increase mileage. I am wondering how adding cycling in would help. Maybe keep near the same mileage but add some time on the bike? Just running would be the best use of time but I do miss the bike while I’m marathon training.
As for slowing down the pace, I fully realize that slowing down would allow me to finish strong. Every indicator I had says the pace I chose was in the right spot. I ran the CO marathon in May at just under 3:18. I set a goal for 3:15 for this race and my training was much better and right on pace for a 3:15 according to the book. In addition, as one poster pointed out, CIM is considered a very fast race.
After running CIM I think its reputation may be a little exaggerated. The first half is pretty hilly. The second half is great though.
CIM is the 2nd fastest course I’ve run. I’ve run Chicago, St George, Philadelphia, Houston, Grandma’s, Steamtown, St George, Marine Corps, Poconos, Gasparilla, Delaware, New York, & Boston. It’s point to point, almost always perfect conditions, flat last 10k, no major hills, and net elevation loss. Based on my experience, here’s my opinion of the top 3 fastest marathon courses I’ve personally run and aware of:
One thing I noticed is that you don’t have many long runs. I also fade at mile 23 unless I’ve put in some runs longer than the time of my marathon (i.e. lower effort, longer time). I run around a 3 hour marathon, so I will include a few long 3 - 3.5 hour runs which helps me last through to the end.
And yes, biking helps a lot because you can put in the hours without the damage. Do several 4 hour rides at a decent effort, followed by a short 20 min run, and that should give you some extra endurance to push through the final miles. That means you only need to do a few of the very long runs, the rest you can build on the bike.
Keep up with the Pfitz and move to 18/70. That will take you to another level.
IIRC, the 18/70 plan doesn’t leave any room for cross-training at all. So if I moved up from 18/55 to 18/70 and dropped the cross-training, would that really be an improvement? Or is it feasible to do both, particularly for a runner in his 60s like myself? I’d be interesting in hearing some opinions on the question. (Currently I’m using Pfitz 18/55 in my Boston training, and I’ll stick to that for this race, but I might contemplate “moving up” in the future.)
EDIT: I checked again, and the 18/70 plan does allow one day per week for “rest or cross-training”–which is still practically none at all. I’m not sure my body could hold up without one rest day per week anyway.