Just got done watching the Youtube videos of the 1989 Iron War again (thanks Bev for posting them) and I was wondering:
Given all the new technology from the last 20 years, bikes, wheels, swim speed suits, nutrition, shoes, windtunnels, etc, etc, etc, what kind of times would Mark and Dave have posted if they had all this new stuff back then?
Even though I LOVE new gadgets and technology, I’m not so sure their times would have been that much faster. I’m leaning towards talent and, above all, their training over the gear, is what made them so fast. Although my opinion doesn’t change the fact that I’m still going to spend ridiculous amounts of money on the newest gear so I can still race ridiculously slow :>
It’s been debated here before. I do wonder the same thing. It’s interesting to note that bike times are faster now - both absolute and through the field, but on the whole few are running faster than Scott and Allen did almost 20 years ago. And if bike times are not faster, clearly with all the aero gadgets now, watts are being saved on the bike to get the same time - but again, run times are the same or slower, despite using less energy on the bike.
My sense is that back then there was a more go-for-it attitude. I am just going to go hard until I blow. In the 90’s the racing at IMH became a bit more strategic. Knowing that, in most cases it’s going to come down to the run, the game-plan was to ride with in yourself, and not let the lead grow too much on the bike, then run strongly and steadily. Peter Reid personified this strategy. Reid could have ridden much harder and faster, but he was not concerned about a fat bike split or being first to T2 - he wanted the win. It worked well for him with three wins at IMH.
Given all the new technology from the last 20 years, bikes, wheels, swim speed suits, nutrition, shoes, windtunnels, etc, etc, etc, what kind of times would Mark and Dave have posted if they had all this new stuff back then?\
They pretty much had everything that makes any substancial difference in time during that race. The only major jump in technology has been bike position, which was around in 1989. Everything else you mentioned is just window dressing, except that the bikes are about 5lbs lighter overall. That doesn’t translate into too much speed on a course like Hawaii though. Everest Hill Challenge, for sure, but not Hawaii.
Differences; Speedsuit- Nothing when you factor in transition
Nutrition- Nothing, those guys figured out their own personal nutrition that worked for them.
Wind tunnels- Nothing, only validates what they were already doing
Wheels- Nothing really, discs were not allowed, and still are not. Maybe a few seconds overall from the
alternatives used today to back then.
Shoes- Give me a break, the best shoes ever made were back in the 80’s.
Training methods- Have to give it to the old guard, they did not have the gadgets and training programs to tell them what their limits were, the found those out on the race course by trial and error. Remember Mark failed 6 times pushing over the limits, until he found that line he could bump up against for 8 hours and still stay strong. Looks like todays women are getting to that point now again…
Competition- Pretty hard to argue that racing side by side with someone just as good as you are for 8 hours, does not have some psoitive impact on an overall fast time. We have not had that scenario since then. Close, but not the mano a mano, stroke for stroke, stride for stride, attacking style, from two very agressive guys that just hate to lose…
didn’t the bike times include transition times back then and
there are some who say they got advantage on the bike from the press vehicles…At least thats what Jurgan Zack will tell you when you tell him his ironman hawaii run times are slow.
Regardless that race they were both smokin on the run especially at the start after the pit they were side by side to the get go early on with some very fast mile splits in the early stages that even they both have said at the time were insane.
The Pit was not added until a few years later. The run in 1989 was pretty straight forward. You ran back up the hill at the Kona Surf( T2) and then turned left along Alii drive to town then up Palani to the Queen K then straight out the Hwy until you reached the big inflatable Bud Light can in the middle of the road( near the airport). You looped around that and headed straight back to town. No Energy Lab. I am guessing that, that run course is slighly easier than the current one.
The Pit was not added until a few years later. The run in 1989 was pretty straight forward. You ran back up the hill at the Kona Surf( T2) and then turned left along Alii drive to town then up Palani to the Queen K then straight out the Hwy until you reached the big inflatable Bud Light can in the middle of the road( near the airport). You looped around that and headed straight back to town. No Energy Lab. I am guessing that, that run course is slighly easier than the current one.
I raced in 1991 and the pit was there and I thought I remembered dave talking about the pit in that(89) race. We also ran into the energy lab in 1991 we did go past it then doubled back through 95 for sure.
But in 1988 I was a volunteer at the turnaround aid station past the energy lab because they used to run past the energy lab a bit then turning around instead so the pit probably made the extra distance in 91 I guess I know it was very close to the airport so guess they didn’t do energy lab back then
But coming out of the kona surf up that hill is bad enough side by side.
Hard to say but I think todays bike course is tougher if it’s one of those days when the winds shift because age gropuers are half hour later getting to hawi than they used to the pros early start takes back some of their time. Mentally though coming back iand passing the airport your really almost there but when the bike finish was at Kona surf it was still a long way in.
the out and back up at the beginning doesn’t help either I’d think.
But don’t have to deal with that steep hill at keahou at what 108 to 110 miles into the bike.
The out and back on ali is pretty tough at start of run because of the rollers which are mainly in that section. The older run at least after the t2 hill and pit you pretty much had downhill for few miles then the rollers once.
But change is inevitable and doesn’t change the fact
that race in 1989 was one of the best of all time in hawaii.
Sure would be nice to see couple or 3 guys duke it out on the run like that again but might never happen again.
Given all the new technology from the last 20 years, bikes, wheels, swim speed suits, nutrition, shoes, windtunnels, etc, etc, etc, what kind of times would Mark and Dave have posted if they had all this new stuff back then?\
They pretty much had everything that makes any substancial difference in time during that race. The only major jump in technology has been bike position, which was around in 1989. Everything else you mentioned is just window dressing, except that the bikes are about 5lbs lighter overall. That doesn’t translate into too much speed on a course like Hawaii though. Everest Hill Challenge, for sure, but not Hawaii.
Yeah. Right.
Differences; Speedsuit- Nothing when you factor in transition Have you been watching all the swim records break in the past two months? They still had to transition back then and they changed clothes completely for the run.
Nutrition- Nothing, those guys figured out their own personal nutrition that worked for them.
**I’ll give you this, but only because I don’t know what kind of science was behind their nutrition back then and how that has since changed. **
Wind tunnels- Nothing, only validates what they were already doing So all modern wind tunnel research and its effect on bicycle engineering hasn’t created a substancially more aerodynamic bike over the past 20 years? Aero position and bike fit hasn’t been refined to create a position more comfortable/more aerodynamic enough to make a difference? Shit, not to mention how much more aero helmets have become.
Wheels- Nothing really, discs were not allowed, and still are not. Maybe a few seconds overall from the
alternatives used today to back then. No, discs aren’t allowed. But Xentis? Zipp? Hed? Wheels aren’t actually faster now? Maybe you’re right…
Shoes- Give me a break, the best shoes ever made were back in the 80’s. Yes. And as expected, they were running faster marathon splits then.
Training methods- Have to give it to the old guard, they did not have the gadgets and training programs to tell them what their limits were, the found those out on the race course by trial and error. Remember Mark failed 6 times pushing over the limits, until he found that line he could bump up against for 8 hours and still stay strong. Looks like todays women are getting to that point now again…
Competition- Pretty hard to argue that racing side by side with someone just as good as you are for 8 hours, does not have some psoitive impact on an overall fast time. We have not had that scenario since then. Close, but not the mano a mano, stroke for stroke, stride for stride, attacking style, from two very agressive guys that just hate to lose… POINT BEING: Don’t make excuses for how little overall Ironman times have improved compared to how much technology has progressed. Dave Scott and Mark Allen are just that much more bad ass than everyone else.
So all modern wind tunnel research and its effect on bicycle engineering hasn’t created a substancially more aerodynamic bike over the past 20 years? Aero position and bike fit hasn’t been refined to create a position more comfortable/more aerodynamic enough to make a difference? Shit, not to mention how much more aero helmets have become.
I am sure you know this, but I remind you anyway
the overwhelming proportion of aerodynamic drag is caused by the rider, and the positions haven’t changed a whole lot from what the fastest guys were doing in the late 80’s and early 90’s. improving the bike aerodynamics by as much as 50% (unlikely, but possible i guess) has a relatively small effect on the overall rider+bike CdA, and is affected by the same problem as …
disc wheels and aero helmets will save time in a race, for sure. but the amount they save is of the same order of magnitude as the variations between anyone’s race from year to year, so how are you going to spot the effect?
I’d suggest that if we are able to get some combination of Macca, Stadler, and Al-Sultan to about mile 80 of the bike reasonably together…that we’ll see some really fast running out of today’s best Kona guys.
The problem is that while Macca is not the slouch at cycling that some think he is…and Stadler is not the slouch at running that some say he is…there is enough difference between the two over those two disciplines that they have to do their own races and might only really close on each other in the final kilometers of the run… And that’s not long enough to drive some super fast times. Al-Sultan mixed with either one might do it…particularly an Al-Sultan/Macca matchup.
We shouldn’t discount the history between Allen and Scott prior to '89. We don’t have that depth of history between any of today’s athletes…there are too many races…and schedules are too disparate. By all accounts, Mark and Dave knew each other about as well as any two racers ever did.
POINT BEING: Don’t make excuses for how little overall Ironman times have improved compared to how much technology has progressed. Dave Scott and Mark Allen are just that much more bad ass than everyone else.
Huh? And, ahhh…I think the underlined sentence WAS the point of Monty’s post. He wasn’t “making excuses for how little overall Ironman times have improved…” just pointing out that even with modern “technology”, Mark and Dave’s overall times wouldn’t have been that much better on the day. Mark’s point was that the two of them had figured out what they needed to do and then rolled it out there in the greatest IMH race of all time. Even if the bike might have have been a bit faster with modern eqiupment, the run splits that day were incredible for both of them, and ultimately decided the day.
I got a lottery spot in 2001 which was the year Dave last raced out there. I was really looking forward to seeing him somewhere on the course, figuring it would probably be around the start of my climb to Hawi as he was coming down. Alas, he dropped that day with bad legs from a change in bike set-up and I never had the chance to see The Man actually race. I still would like to see him give it another shot.
I agree with Monty. I don’t think all the new equipment does as much as people like to think. It does make the sport more fun and interesting, but other than costing a LOT of money, that’s about it.
I also agree that the planets were aligned perfectly for a perfect race between two ultra competitive guys who were both ready to throw down on that day. I’m hoping for a similar type race between Macca and Crowie this year. Both are guys who can run super fast and if Crowie stays with Macca on the bike, AND they need to ride a little faster to keep up with someone like Norman (since he can still run reasonably fast on a good day), it could be an interesting race. I’m keeping my fingers crossed for a scenario like that…
I also agree that the best shoes were made in the 80’s! I’d kill for a pair of the old yellow Nike sock racers!
I’m hoping for a similar type race between Macca and Crowie this year. \
I think this year it is possible to have one of the greatest, if not equal to the Ironwar of 89’. Crowie and Macca are two guys that can go wire to wire, then throw in Norman and Torbjorn off the front for a classic chase. And I really think that Potts as an unknown quanity, could be right there off the front with the uber bikers, or beginning the run with the low 2:40 guys. And he could potentially win it from either position. Let’s just hope everyone is on their A game on race day, and this could be one for the ages…
Same goes for the womens. If we can believe the times that have just been done in Europe, and Chrissy coming off her 4th win in a row, and throw Samantha in there again for good measure, then this one could be the best womens race ever.
One thing most do not remember is that Mark did not have Hawaii figured out until he sat on Daves toes for the entire race in '89. I wonder if Mark had done his more typical drop Dave on the bike, if he would have won or lost the "89 race.
Yes, Mark was often racing hard and winning big time in Nice and I do not think Hawaii had been as big a focus for him until "89.
Was Dave better in the heat than Mark in the years leading up to the '89 race?
"89 was the best Hawaii race to watch–WOW!
Mark was a better biker than Dave was, and a better pure runner. Dave was just a bit better in the heat physiology area, so it kind of evened it out for them at Hawaii. Dave was never able to challenge Mark in Nice. Mark would drop Dave on the bike in the early years, because he used his perceived exertion as a guide on the bike, and many times it came back to bite him late in the race. You cannot falter one bit against Dave, because he just never blew up. Once Mark figured he could out run Dave, then he changed his tatic to waiting for the run. That tatic served him well in his next 5 victories there. Against other guys, he would just measure out how much he could handicap them in the run, and ride his pace to suit that stragedy. Got dicey once when he spotted Hellerigel over 12 minutes, and had to run a 2:41 to close the gap. But that was his strenght, he knew that if he did not over pace the bike, he could muster a sub 2:42 just about any year…Once he got that stragedy, it never let him down there…
I’ve cancelled my involvement in any thread, with any race that whimps out and cancels their swims. I just give up on them. There was no excuse, even though the shitty and un prepared swimmers will make them…
I agree on speedsuits - any gain you get you will lose because you gotta take it off. And, most likely, you’ll still lose time because I don’t think it’s going to be too much time savings in an IM. This is not pool speed swimming!
If I remember correctly, and too often I dont, Mark had seriously focused to win Hawaii in '87 since he had placed 2nd the prior two years, but blew up again. I think that was the focus of his book he wrote after the '87 race. I remember there being some big sponsors who bet on him winning in '87, too. I also just saw an interview on Youtube from the Ironman DVD collection where Mark said something to the effect that he finally just decided to let Dave dictate the race since Dave had the race figured out.