Marathon training: Slightly alarmed by Galloway. Should I be?

A friend and I are training for a marathon that is now 21 weeks away.

We are going to train together (have had an excellent experience as training buddies in the past - similar pace, etc.). So we want to agree on a training plan that works for both of us. It will be our first marathon.

She picked up the Galloway book - and we ended up discussing it last night.

I have done other reading, and Galloway is so different from most. The more I read, the less I know what to do.

Let’s start with a point by point on concerns about Galloway.

  1. The plan calls for a 26.2 mile run in training. (That is for the beginners. The next plan up calls for a 26.2 AND an overdistance of 27-28 mi.)

I glanced at 7 other 18- to 21-week training plans out there (Higdon, Pfitzinger, etc.). Between these 7 plans, the “longest recommended run” was:

20 mi (5 plans)
21 mi (1 plan)
22-23 mi (1 plan)

Quote from Pfitzinger’s book: “My experience as a runner and coach indicates that long runs greater than 22 miles take much more out of the body than do runs in the range of 20 to 22 miles. I occasionally included runs of 27 to 30 miles in my marathon preparations and believe that I ran slower in my marathons because of these efforts.”

Galloway - perhaps anticipating criticism that his longest run is too long - counters by saying that a 26.2 is doable without injury in training if you (a) take walk breaks; and (b) run at a pace a full 2 minutes per mile slower than you are capable of.

My friend has pointed out that mentally, it would be useful to do the 26.2 in training to “know you can do the race.”

  1. Speed of the long run. Galloway wants you to do any given long run a full 2 minutes slower per mile than you “could” run that distance that day. This seems more conservative (slower) than most of the other plans, which seem to recommend in the range of 10%-15% slower.

E.g. When we get up to our 15 mile long run, let’s say we “could” do it at a 10 minute/mile pace. Galloway would say, run it at a 12 minute/mile pace. Others say, 11-11.5 minute pace.

I am all for avoiding injury. So on the surface, the slower pace (Galloway) sounds safer. On the other hand, at least one of the plans cautions against going too slow. (Can’t remember which one.) He says you start to lose your good form when you run too slow.

I find the idea of slowing down to a 12 minute mile pretty unpleasant. However, if someone persuasively showed me that I must do this to avoid injury, I would be more likely to consider it.

  1. Volume during the week. Galloway wants you to do 3 midweek runs: One at ~45 min., 2 at ~30 min. This totals only 1:45 per week.

Now, I can understand why you might limit the length of your midweek runs if you are beginner runner. For a just-off-the-couch person, ramping up the volume too fast may be a recipe for injury.

But we’re not beginner runners.

Most of the other plans recommend more volume midweek. Some of them are saying that a midweek middle distance run should ramp up to say 13 miles later in the training. Their point is that, to even make it possible to complete the weekly long run without injury, you need to be “locking in” endurance gains from a middle distance run midweek.

Daniels - the opposite extreme from Galloway - wants you to do really high midweek volume and then limit your long run to 25-30% of your total weekly miles!

Does Galloway’s low-volume approach work for some people? I am skeptical, but want to keep an open mind.

There is one thing that both of us DO like from Galloway. That is the walk breaks. After running for a few years without walk breaks, I started experimenting with them 3 years ago and they worked for me. I (we both) now incorporate walk breaks for runs over 9 miles or so. As a result, in our races we pace consistently and always end up passing a ton of people in the last few miles.

As for background: We have both been running for a few years. Both done a few half marathons. I have a good base right now, having completed a half ironman one month ago. She too has a good base - it’s been a few months since she’s run long, but she runs very frequently in any given week.

I am especially interested in what the running coaches here have to say - as well as marathoners who have tried different approaches and discovered which one has worked best for you.

Thanks and looking forward to an interesting debate.

All I know is MattSF is a huge Galloway fan. Search for his comments on the issue.

Will you be supplementing your marathon training with cross training of any kind?

There are a lot of interesting angles in this post, I will comment on the walk breaks. I use walk breaks in almost all of my runs over 1.5 hours. I take 2-3 minutes to stretch, eat a GU, and take mental note of my physical state. Depending on the distance I might do this 2-3 times. I will do this in the winter as well, but I keep it to no more than a minute if its cold. Bottom line is that walk breaks are good and there is no need to feel like your long run is a failure becuase you take a few minutes to stretch and gather yourself. Sometimes, I will go 6:1 or 8:1 run/rest for the entire duration of my long run, by the time I get to the end I feel like I could belt out a 30 miler!

Will you be supplementing your marathon training with cross training of any kind?

We talked about that briefly last night, too. I am a triathlete, and see myself cycling at least once a week, swimming at least once a week, and doing some limited strength training. (Mostly abs/lower back/hip abductors & adductors to avoid return of piriformis syndrome.) I would like to do a weekly ride of ~30mi, plus my typical short bike commutes around town. But I’ve never trained for a marathon, and will have to see how much biking my body will take, and whether it should be a recovery ride or a more ambitious variety.

Her cross-training will mostly be in the gym, so she’ll do more comprehensive strength training than I do. She’s not a swimmer and she will be riding her bike around town sometimes during the week. She also walks a lot.

You’re making this too complicated. How about this simple plan:

  1. get your run frequency up to 5-6 runs a week,

  2. get your mileage up to whatever you can tolerate physically and mentally (40-50 mi/week?),

  3. experiment with your long runs, walking breaks, etc. Listen to your body.

  4. swim for active recovery,

  5. stretch often.

Throw away all expectations. Switch off the thinking. Enjoy the training. And enjoy your first marathon.

Edit: that was my recommendation for you. I’ll have to see a picture of your friend before I can draw up a plan for her. :slight_smile:

I run about your pace and would be very worried about recovering from a 26.2 long run, given that it will take considerably longer than 4 hours. I’ve done two marathons and my longest runs were the standard 20 milers. Over the next few years, I’d like to up that maybe a little higher, but only to about 22.

The reason I asked about cross training is that I trained for Boston last year by doing the following each week:

3 Swims

3 Bikes

3 Runs

Runs were: 1. Track 2. Tempo 3. Endurance

I was able to run a PR at Boston on 25M a week running…don’t underestimate the carryover effect that you will get from S/B (which is generally more freindly to your ligaments and joints)

good luck

Training for my sixth marathon and here is what I have found:

Long runs are of course most important. They should be mostly easy: I do them about 60 sec. slower than goal pace, so 2 min. slower than 5-10K pace. very reasonable. I also sometimes incorporate walking breaks, every 2 miles or so (just 1-2 min.). I think they do a lot of good, if only mentally. Adding 2-4 miles at a faster clip near the end is nice … Four months out I start with 10-12 milers and get up to 22 miles / 3 hours which seems like more than enough.

Medium long runs are next most important: 60 to 90+ minutes (8-12 miles) This is the time to go quite a few miles at goal pace: 5-10 miles or more. I mix it up with miles at GP and slightly faster tempo miles.

Everything else is just cement between those blocks. Even intervals, which are the least important part for most marathoners. Do lots of short easy runs, run 5-6 times a week. Its how to get the needed mileage.

Marathon training is really simple: Run a lot of miles and don’t run too hard.

good luck!

Pfitzinger = knowledgeable, commited, altruistic, smart, all that is good in the sport of distance running.

Galloway = vendor of snake oil.

What is your goal for the marathon?

What are your plans/goals for the months afterward?

Is this your “A” race?

Pfitzinger = knowledgeable, commited, altruistic, smart, all that is good in the sport of distance running.

Galloway = vendor of snake oil.

I know from reading your posts in the past that you are an accomplished runner.

Wondering if you would be willing to elaborate on any of my original points, especially with regard to…

  1. Distance of longest run (~20 mi versus 26.2 mi)
  2. Midweek volume

Thanks in advance.

I know that I posed a lot of questions all in one, all of which get to the heart of running theory and practice. As one poster suggested, maybe I am “overthinking” this. But the truth is that I love theories of effective training and will only be 100% committed to my plan when I am persuaded that there is good science behind it.

I agree - what is your goal here? To PR? I assume it is not just to finish since you mentioned you are experienced. I’m NOT a big Galloway fan except for beginners. I like Daniels and I really like Higdon’s plans if you are a durable runner and don’t get injured easily (they are pretty tough).

I’ve tried the galloway method many years ago and daniels’ more recently and had much better results with daniels. The one mega long run with some 30-40 min runs during the week leaves you constantly recovering from the weekend death march whereas the long run that is just one more run is much easier to keep doing week after week. It’s the consistency that matters. A single workout, whether it’s 20 or 26 mile run isn’t going to matter. Daniels’ method seems much more sound. your training paces are based on recent race results, not what you think you could do. You get to train faster when you can race faster. Daniels’ % limits on intervals, long runs, etc. keep you from overdoing one workout and becoming inconsistent. One thing I think can help with injury is avoid long runs on pavement if possible.

What is your goal for the marathon?

What are your plans/goals for the months afterward?

Is this your “A” race?

Speaking for myself, goals are…

  • To not get injured. (Piriformis or IT band problems emerge when I ramp things up too fast or if I race too often.)

  • To “run” the race comfortably, with the periodic walk breaks. I don’t want to be one of the undertrained marathoners who has to walk the last 3-6 miles.

  • To find out what I am capable of, in terms of finishing time. This is my FIRST marathon. The FIRST time I do a particular race distance, I do not set a time goal. Rather, I set out to “find out” what I can do comfortably. Took this approach for my half ironman; it took the pressure off, and established a baseline from which (next time) I can set out to PR. Also, not setting a time goal keeps me from starting out too fast.

  • Presently I am needing a bit of a mental break from racing. At least for the first 2 months, I cannot be the Type A, sacrifice-anything-to-get-my-workout-in-today, driven personality that I was in Jan-August training for my tris. If the “plan” says to do a 15 mi. training run but that weekend I am salivating to jump in on say a trail running race, then I am going to go with what gives me the more pleasure.

  • I want to start serious swim/bike training right after the marathon, to ramp back up to another Half Ironman maybe 3-4 months after the marathon.

  • I am having a hard time answering whether this is my “A” race. Therefore, it probably isn’t. It is just something that I can focus on now that I’m burnt out on everything but running.

I encourage you to go out right now and buy Lore of Running by Tim Noakes. All of your answers are in that book. Good luck! Steve

I think that if you have a running background of any sort, Galloway probably is probably not going to be the best for you. If your like me: a slow horrible runner who is constantly teetering around injury with even minimal running - then it will work great. Even so, I would definitely forgo the 26-27 mile run. I think 18-20 is about as far as you really want to go - for me that is close to 3 hours. I do think the walk breaks are a great idea for saving your legs on your long endurance run.

Your goals do not compliment each other…

  • To run the race comfortably, you won’t be able to find out what you are capable of

  • Skipping a workout only increases your chance of injury

It doesn’t sound like you’re taking this very seriously…so the Galloway approach is a means to “have fun” with the 4-4:30 crowd. There are top gun runners who use Galloway, but mostly newer runners w/o a lot of confience. The walking is a means for them to build endurance, confidence and reduce injury.

My 2 cents is that you’re an athlete, so push yourself! Since there’s a lot of time before the marathon, plug your numbers into a running calculator and see what you are “capable” of…then find a workout which compliments this goal.

Your HIM should have convinced you that it’s not a question of finishing…it’s a question of pushing yourself through your own barriers.

Your goals do not compliment each other…

  • To run the race comfortably, you won’t be able to find out what you are capable of

  • Skipping a workout only increases your chance of injury

You have two very good points there.

Disagree. On my former tri team I was seen as one of the most driven, focused people in the whole bunch. I am saying that right now I am going to take that down one notch for my marathon. That is not the same as saying, “Well, my plan called for 4 runs this week but I only got in two because I just didn’t feel like it.”

Once I pick a plan, I won’t flake on it.

Thanks (sincerely) for your help. It does help to take a lens to goals and figure out where there may be contradictions.

Yes, I’d be alarmed with that advice. I think the other 7 references you checked sound better.

Chance of injury increases after 20 miles, so I never do much more than that in training, 22 max.

Also 2 min/mile is too big a difference. I do the LSD runs at MP+1 min/mile.

I like to work up to 6 days per week. But I love running, and that’s not a chore.

I agree with the other posters about checking out Pfitz instead.

I think walk breaks can be a big help during LSD runs, especially for a first-timer. And having a running partner (or more than one) is a great thing.

Good luck!