I’ve got a marathon coming up in Jan, and most of the online plans say not to do a training run longer than 20 miles.
This concerns me since people always talk about the 20 mile wall, and since every time I do a new long run distance, it hurts really bad the first time, but is easy the second.
Anyone ever just go ahead and run up to 23 or 26 in training before the marathon? Is this definitely a bad idea even if you are well prepared and feeling ok?
A few questions come to mind before being able to answer…
I do most of my long runs by time, not distance. In my run up to Boston this year I had 3 hr and 2:45 hr runs scheduled. I screwed up the course on both days and ended up going 3:22 on one day and 3:16 on the other, and both days were over 25 miles. I ran 2:47 at Boston though, which was an 11 min PR, so it doesn’t seem like it hurt me too badly. I suspect that I succeeded in spite of those runs instead of because of them.
Mike
estimated finishing time of 3:30
Current weekly mileage is at 30 to 40 miles per week.
Last sunday I did 18 miles, last 3 mile was tough, but no extreme soreness the next day.
No nagging inuries so far, but I’m going into uncharted territory with mileage here =)
I’m certainly not a marathon expert, but I don’t think it’s best to have your long run be almost half of your weekly mileage. You might think about adding in some more shorter runs. Just a suggestion.
20 miles is a nice round number, so it gets quoted alot. In Europe is 30K. If we measured in wefts and a weft was 1.1 mile we’d still probably recommend 20 of them. Your long run should be hard at the end but not develop into a death march. If your in good shape, no reason it can’t be longer than 20 miles. If your not no reason it can’t be 16. Injury occurs when you get into death march mode, and run a long way with poor form.
Styrrell
Yes, I have run longer than 20 miles in several of my marathon builds, including my most recent. Once I even used one marathon as training for another. I just ran it as a supported training run and purposely ran slower than the race pace for the main event. IMO, it all depends on how many miles you are running overall in training and your ability to recover. If you’re running 40 miles/week, then doing a long of 23-26+ will likely be a big stress on the body - doable, but recovery could be an issue. If you’re running 70-90+ miles/week, then it’s likely you will be able to handle that long of a run without too much difficulty recovering. I know guys who train for ultras that regularly run in excess of 26 miles who can bust out a good marathon race without much difficulty, but these guys are running more in the neighborhood of 140+ miles/week. IMO, much of the warning about not running more than 20 miles is aimed at the lower mileage runners. In Galloway’s first book (before he started advocating walk breaks) he has plans that call for runs in the 28-30 mile range. Just be careful to build into it slowly. Going from 20 to 26 is a big jump and not really advised unless you are running higher mileage overall.
Edited to add: If you’re only running 30-40 miles/week, then doing a long of more than 20 isn’t adviseable. Your should realistically be in the 50-60 mile range at a bare minimum before even attempting it.
I’m guessing that your 18mi training run was in the neighborhood of 2:50 to 3:00 based on your race predictions? If so, I would not recommend more than 3:00-3:10 as your absolute longest, especially if total weekly mileage is not over 40mi. You might even want to consider not going any longer than your 2:30-2:40 but pick up the pace in the last 30minutes. And if you have the time, a 20-30 minute med. pace walk at the end of the run also helps teach your body to be on the move without the wear and tear of running the distance.
Next focus would be on nutrition and fluid intake for these long runs which leads to nutriton plan on the big day–often the co-conspirator of ‘the wall’ Be sure to get in adequate calories from the 1:00 to 2:30 mark (and continue through the race) so that you can use the calories in the last km’s.
Interesting to see what the others think though…lots of successful ways of getting the job done.
Scott
There is this fascination with the distance of the long run that really should not be. You long run distance does not matter nearly as much as the weekly running volume you do. When someone asks you how your training is going, weekly running volume should be the first thing you think of. Distance of your long runs should be the last.
Consistent, weekly volume is what makes you strong. It is what will give you the strength to run that last 10k. Not the one or two times you went over 18 miles in training
Its an individual thing. I think the main purpose of coaches and others “capping” the long run at 2.5 to 3 hours (which is less than 20 miles at 10 min. pace for an average runner) is that the physical training benefit of running more than 3 hours is limited, but the chance of injury (or at least the possible negative impact on the next fews days of training) is high. If you are well-prepared and it doesn’t have a negative impact on training the next few days, hell run 30 miles! I know some people who are getting into the ultra trail run stuff, and they go very long but mostly easy: Like 25 miles but hiking the uphills and pacing about at 3-min. slower than marathon pace. In general, this isn’t slowing their times down or hurting them.
Usually when you do your 20 mile runs your body isn’t fully rested. After a good taper - your 26.2 mile run will feel more like your 20 mile training run (but with more cowbells).
Yes, I have run over 20. By the way, there isn’t a magic training number. Just don’t do 26 miles every week. Some weeks you can even do 17-18 at almost marathon pace, while others you can do a 26 -28 comfortably (or with every 4th mile at pace). What it really comes down to, is what you would like to do, and what you need to improve. Don’t think to much, chances are you are over analysing.
Chris
THATS what I need!
more cowbell!
Usually when you do your 20 mile runs your body isn’t fully rested. After a good taper - your 26.2 mile run will feel more like your 20 mile training run (but with more cowbells).
I’m training for my first marathon, also in January. I’ve been spending a lot of time on running forums, and the advice here, while limited in quantity, is actually as strong, or stronger than what I’ve seen on the running forums I speak of. I struggle with the traditional training plans due to work, family, and multisport commitments (hard to fit that many miles in when I’m still trying to spend some time in the saddle). So what I’m taking away from this thread so far is:
I read an article by Dean Karnazas, the guy who ran 50 marathons in 50 days, and his conclusion was that he just got stronger. I’m paraphrasing but think one of, if not the last one was the fastest of the lot. Makes you think some of the conservative recommendations may be just that.
Not that anyone would consider running 49 26 mile warm up runs in the two months before your target race!
I’m training for my first marathon, also in January. I’ve been spending a lot of time on running forums, and the advice here, while limited in quantity, is actually as strong, or stronger than what I’ve seen on the running forums I speak of. I struggle with the traditional training plans due to work, family, and multisport commitments (hard to fit that many miles in when I’m still trying to spend some time in the saddle). So what I’m taking away from this thread so far is:
I think you have distilled this down to some pithy advice.
I am a big advocate of the consistency over the length of the long run and therefore my long runs stall out at around 18-19 miles.
However, for my last three marathons (I have only done four) I have been stalled at 3 hours (3:00, 2:58, 2:59). My 10K and HM times indicate I should be able to run much faster, however I seem to crack at about 21 miles and lose substantial time. Something is going to have to change as I prepare for Boston this year, and it is going to involve doing some 20 to 23 mile runs. Although this has not worked for successfully yet, I think that the length of the long run will become a barrier as you are trying to push the envelope and go substantially under 3 hours (2:50 or less). The good news of course is that at these types of paces the long run is not unreasonably long in terms of time, much less than 3 hours. Good luck with your race.
The last marathon of his 50 (NYC in 2006) was his fastest - I think just a few seconds over 3 hrs. I recall from his documentary film that he said he was getting stronger over the course of his 50 runs. But I think his last marathon was his fastest not because he was getting stronger but more likely because he knew he didn’t have to do one the next day and could air things out a bit. It wasn’t like he ran NYC at the same effort as the first 49 and just happened to go much faster. He deliberately ran harder for the 50th.
How do you guys feel about rest days? Specifically the day after the long run. Most plans indicate that one should be taken, but I have read recently that a very short, very easy run (like 2 miles) is better than resting in order to get some blood flowing back into the muscles to speed recovery. This would seem to support the weekly volume for strength theory as well. If this is indeed the way to go, I want to work it into my training theory, somewhere in point #2 about weekly volume, or new point #4 about recovery tactics.
FYI, I’m currently on a 5-day plan of Sunday long, Monday off, Tuesday tempo, Wednesday mid-distance, Thursday short/easy, Friday off, Saturday short/easy, so this could potentially leave me with just Friday as a rest day. Perhaps Friday should be another short run and Monday off.
Any input appreciated.
I think that for most training, you should not need a rest day after or before a long run. Emphasis on “need” (as apposed to “want”). Sure there are exceptions, particularly long runs in which you incorporate a number of fast miles (perhaps Marathon paced miles), but for the most part, if you truly need a rest day before or after, you are probably either going too hard on the long run or its too high a percentage of your weekly mileage.
Don’t get me wrong: If you plan a weekly day off, the day after or before a long run is a good day to do so. I just think you should not usually feel you need one.
I think you would probably help yourself a bit more by turning one of your two short/easy days into longer -easy days. Not as long as Wednesday but not short either. Personally I get a great benefit by turning my Wednesdays into medium-length, “semi” long runs. So if my long run is 20, I might do 12-14 on Wedesday and 6-10 most other days.
Whatever you do, be sure to keep those easy days easy!
Can’t use Dean K. as a model for comparison… the guy is a freek.