Marathon training plan with approx 50% running at race pace - good idea?

Triathlon Forum
1

Hi All,

I would like to tackle a sub 3 Marathon in spring. I recently did a 5k and came in at 18.30, which is why I think that sub 3 is within reach.

I bought a 12 week sub 3 training plan from Trainingpeaks and started to follow this plan already now to see how to best train for a marathon. I am now in week 2 and have serious doubts that I will be able to follow this plan at all because of the tremendous amount of speedwork. The plan has me running three times per week, which I liked and was the reason for purchase.

Week 2 for example was:
Run1: 15 min warm up, then 1x20 min race pace, 5 min rest, 20 min above race pace, 20 min easy jog.

Run 2: 15 min warmup, 6x6 min at 5k race pace, 15 min cool down

Run3: 20 min warmup, 30 min race pace, 20 min easy jog

While Run 2 and 3 progress only slightly Run 1 builds up to 3h with 3x35 min at or above race pace. Throughout all weeks 50+ percent of training time is spent at or above race pace…

Anyone on here ever did such a plan?

Thanks all.
Uli

2

I’d rather have a plan with less intensity and more volume. say 5 per week: 1x long, 1x tempo / race pace, 1x above race pace intervals, 2x easy

3

An 18:30 5k definately makes a sub 3 attainable, but how close you are/will get depend alot on how youre trained.

Naturally, the marathon is in the other end of the scale of speed vs endurance. I am in a similar situation as you - I have still not run a sub 3 marathon, but think I should be able to right now! :slight_smile: (has been a few years since I’ve been able to race, but got my HM close to 1:21 high so that gives hope of a sub 3:)

As for the training, I dont think there is anything magical of one plan vs another. More important is you general approach to training, and what method you “go for” (iow what kind of training you choose to do). For marathon-traning, my (undeducated) views are:

  • Do alot of volume if you can.
  • Quality-work should be split in three categories:

Fast intervals - do f.ex 1k intervals faster than your marathon-pace. For your level (18:30 5k), I’d say do 6-8-10 x 1k intervals @ 3:45-3:50 pr k. Dont do them too hard! I am a firm believer in rather cutting back the speed 5 sec pr km, and be able to sustain a few more intervals, than going too fast. If youre injury-prone, be esepcially attentive to these - go slower.

Intervals at race-pace-ish: Tempo-runs, 2k-3k intervals where you run around marathon-pace (4:15 pr k). Some days you can go faster, some days settle for 4:15. I usually do 2k intervalls (3-4-5 x2k @ somewhere between 3:55 - 4:10-pace.

Quality long runs: and this is imo the most important ones: Do long runs with sustained periods of running close to your race-pace. I like doing 20-25-30k runs, where perhaps the last 10-15 og even 20k are close to marathon-pace. You dont have to run 4:15 - but try to get quality-periods of 10k + where you run somewhere between 4:10 and 4:25. These runs take alot out of you, so be well rested going in, and take it easy for 3-4 days after.

I will normally do 2 or 3 quality sessions pr week. If I did a hard quality-long-run, 2 is def enough for me. If the quality-long run is in the easier region (either under 10k of hard work, or a slower pace closer to 4:25 than race-pace), I can do to invervall-sessions + the long run. If the long run is hard, I only do 1 intervall-session.

All other running is fairly easy (anywhere from 4:40 - 5:30-pace, depending on feel)

FYI - I run 70-90 km a week.

4

I would guess your half marathon times may be a better indicator of marathon performance.

For example earlier this year I ran a 17:high 5k, have done 3 x 70.3 runs this year in the 90-93 minute range (they say your 70.3 run pace is around your solo marathon pace) yet I did London Marathon a few weeks ago in 3:05 and York Marathon 2 weeks later in 3:03 hoping to go sub 3hrs in both.

Since then I have run a 1:25 half in horrific conditions on a hilly course and then this weekend just gone a 1:22 on a good course with good weather. I also ran another sub 18min 5k the week after York Marathon.

I thought I was ready to go sub 3 based on my shorter distance races as well (sub 37min 10k this year as well) but think I need to be nailing a few more sub 1:23 half’s before I’ll be confident I could go sub 3 again

5

that were some fast runs, surprising that you did not go sub 3 in the standalone marathon. Any idea why? Have you adjusted your training now?

I will for sure not be able to run sub3 anytime soon but I have never properly trained for a marathon yet, so I guess I will find out if I can do it.

6

An 18-minute 5k indicates sub-3 potential but you still have to train for it. Running 3 times a week with a ton of quality isn’t how I would go after that goal. You can’t fake a marathon. You might be able to run a good 5k/10k with training like that but the marathon requires specificity (mileage). I would run at least 5 times a week. 3 easy days going at least 10k. 1 workout day totaling at least 16k – not a speed session but time spent around threshold. 1 long run in the 25k-35k range. Marathon pace thrown in every few weeks. I would run 6 or 7 days if you can. An extra day would let you have a medium long run day (at least 15k or so, 20k is better). Seems like 3 times/week with a lot of quality is an injury waiting to happen & won’t give you enough strength to tackle to last 10k unless you are an extremely talented runner.

7

If you are shopping for a different approach, here’s two

1 simple marathon training by Jay Johnson, quality once a week and sometimes a fast finish long run, includes supplimental exercises right after running

2 Hansen’s marathon plan, uses cumulative fatigue and running a shorter 15 mi Max, long run on tired legs

Look at advanced plan here

https://hansons-running.com/pages/training-plans
.

8

Simple answer - NO! As others have said, basing a marathon off a 5k time doesn’t work very well unless you put in the miles. 3 runs each week sounds barely adequate to complete, let alone race a marathon. You should run 6 days (or probably 7) a week and build the mileage to at least 50 miles a week. I’ve seen best results when I averaged around 65 miles per week over a 16 week marathon training block. I used the Pfitzinger training plans with pretty good success - based off this book.

9

If you are running easy at least 3 more days during the week I don’t think it’s unreasonable.

Your 5K pace is under 6 min/mile and your M pace is just under 7. With adequate recovery this is all possible, and if it isn’t for you, just run the quality days easy.

10

Simple answer - NO! As others have said, basing a marathon off a 5k time doesn’t work very well unless you put in the miles. 3 runs each week sounds barely adequate to complete, let alone race a marathon. You should run 6 days (or probably 7) a week and build the mileage to at least 50 miles a week. I’ve seen best results when I averaged around 65 miles per week over a 16 week marathon training block. I used the Pfitzinger training plans with pretty good success - based off this book.

Thanks for the reference. I’ll look into it. 65 miles per week is quite impressive and is about 4 times the milage I currently run per week. I think there is a lot of room for improvement for me, given my low running volume but I have to figure out how to approach the marathon without killing myself. Luckily, I am not really injury prone…
U

11

Simple answer - NO! As others have said, basing a marathon off a 5k time doesn’t work very well unless you put in the miles. 3 runs each week sounds barely adequate to complete, let alone race a marathon. You should run 6 days (or probably 7) a week and build the mileage to at least 50 miles a week. I’ve seen best results when I averaged around 65 miles per week over a 16 week marathon training block. I used the Pfitzinger training plans with pretty good success - based off this book.

Thanks for the reference. I’ll look into it. 65 miles per week is quite impressive and is about 4 times the milage I currently run per week. I think there is a lot of room for improvement for me, given my low running volume but I have to figure out how to approach the marathon without killing myself. Luckily, I am not really injury prone…
U

At the mileage you stated, no I don’t think it is a good idea. I (incorrectly) assumed you were running significantly more.

12

If you are shopping for a different approach, here’s two

1 simple marathon training by Jay Johnson, quality once a week and sometimes a fast finish long run, includes supplimental exercises right after running

2 Hansen’s marathon plan, uses cumulative fatigue and running a shorter 15 mi Max, long run on tired legs

Look at advanced plan here

https://hansons-running.com/pages/training-plans

Thanks!! The Jay Johnson book looks interesting. I’ll look into it!!

13

If you are shopping for a different approach, here’s two

1 simple marathon training by Jay Johnson, quality once a week and sometimes a fast finish long run, includes supplimental exercises right after running

2 Hansen’s marathon plan, uses cumulative fatigue and running a shorter 15 mi Max, long run on tired legs

Look at advanced plan here

https://hansons-running.com/pages/training-plans

Thanks!! The Jay Johnson book looks interesting. I’ll look into it!!

He lays out his whole philosophy and weekly plan in 45 minutes here, see if it grabs you.

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9ydW5mYXN0ZXIubGlic3luLmNvbS9yc3M/episode/ZDBmMjQ3NjBmZDkwYWZmYTE1ZTFkZTc5NjVkMjFmM2I?ep=14

14

Hi All,

I would like to tackle a sub 3 Marathon in spring. I recently did a 5k and came in at 18.30, which is why I think that sub 3 is within reach.

I bought a 12 week sub 3 training plan from Trainingpeaks and started to follow this plan already now to see how to best train for a marathon. I am now in week 2 and have serious doubts that I will be able to follow this plan at all because of the tremendous amount of speedwork. The plan has me running three times per week, which I liked and was the reason for purchase.

Week 2 for example was:
Run1: 15 min warm up, then 1x20 min race pace, 5 min rest, 20 min above race pace, 20 min easy jog.

Run 2: 15 min warmup, 6x6 min at 5k race pace, 15 min cool down

Run3: 20 min warmup, 30 min race pace, 20 min easy jog

While Run 2 and 3 progress only slightly Run 1 builds up to 3h with 3x35 min at or above race pace. Throughout all weeks 50+ percent of training time is spent at or above race pace…

Anyone on here ever did such a plan?

Thanks all.
Uli

You don’t state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn’t translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that’s telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

15

Thanks all.
Uli

You don’t state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn’t translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that’s telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

Your assessment is likely correct. I have been averaging about 15 miles per week this year spread across 2-3 runs. Over summer I did some longer sessions in the 120 min ballpark but not on a regular basis. Based on the comments here, I should probably start to run more first and only then think about the faster running sessions…

16

Thanks all.
Uli

You don’t state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn’t translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that’s telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

Your assessment is likely correct. I have been averaging about 15 miles per week this year spread across 2-3 runs. Over summer I did some longer sessions in the 120 min ballpark but not on a regular basis. Based on the comments here, I should probably start to run more first and only then think about the faster running sessions…

You def need to work on bringing total volume way up with a session or two of speed and then worrk on the longer speed sessions. You are months if not a year away from beginning serious marathon training without high risk of injury. Have you ever run a half or full or just shorter stuff?

17

Agree what others have said. First thing you should do is forget that plan and run 5-6 times a week. Get used to the new frequency/volume then add in 2-3 workouts a week with some tempo, strength, MP work. But I’ll go ahead and say you won’t go sub 3 off of 20 miles a week running only 3x a week. You can’t hide in the marathon so you’ll need a lot more running yo finish without too much pain let alone run at a 6:52 pace for 26.2 miles.

18

Thanks all.
Uli

You don’t state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn’t translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that’s telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

Your assessment is likely correct. I have been averaging about 15 miles per week this year spread across 2-3 runs. Over summer I did some longer sessions in the 120 min ballpark but not on a regular basis. Based on the comments here, I should probably start to run more first and only then think about the faster running sessions…

You def need to work on bringing total volume way up with a session or two of speed and then worrk on the longer speed sessions. You are months if not a year away from beginning serious marathon training without high risk of injury. Have you ever run a half or full or just shorter stuff?

I mostly do 70.3s so I have run a few half’s as part of 70.3s. I did a 50k Trailrun this year, which I obviously did not properly train for and I have not run a marathon in ages (2012 was the last time). So I think I will def. need 6 month for a proper marathon build.

19

Thanks all.
Uli

You don’t state what your training looked like to attain your 5k time. Just because your fast for short race doesn’t translate into a fast marathon time if your not putting in the work for that longer race. If your struggling with these workouts that’s telling me your training volume/intensity was way to low before starting this plan.

Your assessment is likely correct. I have been averaging about 15 miles per week this year spread across 2-3 runs. Over summer I did some longer sessions in the 120 min ballpark but not on a regular basis. Based on the comments here, I should probably start to run more first and only then think about the faster running sessions…

You def need to work on bringing total volume way up with a session or two of speed and then worrk on the longer speed sessions. You are months if not a year away from beginning serious marathon training without high risk of injury. Have you ever run a half or full or just shorter stuff?

I mostly do 70.3s so I have run a few half’s as part of 70.3s. I did a 50k Trailrun this year, which I obviously did not properly train for and I have not run a marathon in ages (2012 was the last time). So I think I will def. need 6 month for a proper marathon build.

Good luck if you plan to run the full in the spring. A couple years back I had decent volume and crushed my 1/2 pr in late summer so decided to train for a sub 315 early spring half. I was well trained at that point but as soon as I turned it up i was injured. Needless to say I didn’t accept the injury at first and kept training. Never got arounf to the full in the spring. Pretty much switched almost exclusively to trail/ultra running after that. Way more satisfying to me.

20

Well as expected, everyone here is lining up and telling you to run more mileage, and slower. And maybe they are right too, no way to know until you try each program and see what gets your best results. I was on the other end of the spectrum, and did all of my lower mileage(about 40 to 45mpw)at race pace average. I ran about 5 times a week, but each and every run would average my goal pace. Start out a minute over, finish a minute under. Or just get on the pace after a few minutes of easing in, and stay there the entire run. Did one 3 hour ride a week to get some distance work in, but this program worked out best for me, and only did 10 weeks of it and two long runs.

So wouldn’t throw your coach and plan out the window just yet, maybe give it a try if you are not injury prone to this type of training…