Need some schedule advice from collective slowtwitch minds.
Using a marathon plan that is set up as follows:
Monday-off/ core work
Tuesday - Tempo run 60-70 minutes
Wednesday - 30-40 min easy run
Thursday - Hill repeats/ speed work
Friday - core work
Sat - 70-90 minute aerobic run
Sunday - long aerobic/ tempo run
I’ve adjusted the plan as follows but not sure what to do about Saturday run.
Monday- swim and lift
Tuesday - 60 tempo/ threshold bike and 30 easy run
Wednesday-swim , 60-70 minute tempo run
Thursday - 60 tempo/ threshold bike, lift
Friday- 60-70 minute hill repeats/ speed work
Sat- 60 -90 bike aerobic and ? Run
Sunday- long aerobic/ tempo run
Not sure how to adjust Sat 70-90 minute run. Make it a Trun and go for 45-60 minutes?
How important are back to back long runs for Mary development?
My experiences:
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That swimming and biking are good “cross training” for a marathon. And that one will not necessarily get faster by eliminating swim/bike, in favor of higher run mileage.
I would try to do 3 easy bikes per week
And 3 easy swims. -
“Long runs” are very important in marathon training (more so than for Ironman training).
And regular long runs, with fast parts, are also important.
(Unfortunately long runs, with fast running included, are very hard to recover from - so plan your recovery well). -
Long tempo runs are important.
Opinion:
The primary reasona most people do “strength work” is to:
a) pretend that they are “training”- so they can feel good about themselves
b) justify to themselves why they are heavier than they should be
(Very rarely do people have some specific, achievable physiological goal that they will achieve by going to the gym).
That said breaststroke, butterfly, backstroke, hill training and sprinting in all sports builds a well rounded athlete AND makes you faster.
What is your main race goal?
The best approach for a tri focus is different from a marathon focus.
In particular, the specificity you need for a good 26.2 mile marathon race is sufficiently different than triathlon that most pro/elite triathletes don’t even attempt to race pure marathons (Jorgesen being an exception) because of the training and racing differences.
For the 26.2, increasing weekly overall RUN mileage is probably the single greatest contributor to success. It’s actually not just about the length of the long run - Hanson plan maxxes at a 16 mile long run, yet works very well per most folks who stick with it.
Sorry, but for the marathon, swapping out running (even recovery runs) for swimming or cycling does NOT work as well. It does work pretty well for half marathons and shorter races to 5k where VO2max is often a limiter, but for the marathon, the limiter will be your leg ability to maintain the pounding of a fast aerobic pace for 26.2 miles, and cycling and swimming don’t help with that.
Dirtymangos,
Thanks for the reply. More trying to figure out what to do with the 70-90 minute Saturday run, especially cause it follows a 60-70 minute hill/ speedwork run and precedes a Sun long tempo run. Was thinking add a 30-40 minute easy run on Thursday and turn Sats run into 60 minute easy run
Lightheir,
Main goal is to properly pace race based on current level of fitness and enjoy the Boston experience. I’ve run 2 previous marathons and both of those resulted in a severe breakdown by mile 20.
The plan I’m following is a run focus plan I’m just tweeking it because I like to also swim and bike. I’m not a pure runner and never will be. Currently at 4-5 hours of running per week and slowly advance to 6-7. Trying to figure out what to do with that long sat run sandwiched in between repeats and long Sunday run
Lightheir,
Main goal is to properly pace race based on current level of fitness and enjoy the Boston experience. I’ve run 2 previous marathons and both of those resulted in a severe breakdown by mile 20.
The plan I’m following is a run focus plan I’m just tweeking it because I like to also swim and bike. I’m not a pure runner and never will be. Currently at 4-5 hours of running per week and slowly advance to 6-7. Trying to figure out what to do with that long sat run sandwiched in between repeats and long Sunday run
Just curious - are you a lottery runner? Mainly asking, as if you are a BQ-qualified marathon runner, I’d say you have enough experience and/or talent to know better than random triathlete forumites many of whom don’t even run marathons, can suggest. That said, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with being a lucky lottery slot winner - and if so, enjoy the experience to the max!
The ‘severe breakdown by mile 20’ is the entire challenge of the marathon, and is best solved by running more total miles in training. As said, more overall weekly miles seems to work better than just increasing the long run but not increasing weekly miles - plans like Higdon beginner have a few very long runs (20 miles, a lot if you’re <40mpw) but are still aimed at slower beginners, whereas the Hanson Advanced marathon plan has zero 20 mile long runs (4-5 runs of 16 miles in length max) but is aimed at faster marathon runners, so you can see how the long run itself is less important relative to overall weekly run mileage for the marathon.
So, the OP want to know how to properly train for a mediocre marathon. My advice, crossfit. (slightly pink)
qualifier but have never trained as a true marathoner. I understand the importance of boosting weekly mileage but personally don’t think my body is ready for 60-80 mile run weeks, at this point. Previous training levels maxed out at two weeks avg around 51-52 miles and that was tri training with a run focus ( my marathon training). Was planning on maxing out at max 60 miles/ week. Was using the bike to augment the overall lack of running volume. Based on the above changed schedule didn’t think it was wise to have 3 long runs back to back. Was thinking add a easy 30-40 minute run on Thursday and make sat an easy 30-40 minute run. Volume would be same just spread out over more days
qualifier but have never trained as a true marathoner. I understand the importance of boosting weekly mileage but personally don’t think my body is ready for 60-80 mile run weeks, at this point. Previous training levels maxed out at two weeks avg around 51-52 miles and that was tri training with a run focus ( my marathon training). Was planning on maxing out at max 60 miles/ week. Was using the bike to augment the overall lack of running volume. Based on the above changed schedule didn’t think it was wise to have 3 long runs back to back. Was thinking add a easy 30-40 minute run on Thursday and make sat an easy 30-40 minute run. Volume would be same just spread out over more days
In that case, I think you have enough talent to figure it out for yourself! A small run volume boost sounds about right with the B/R.
What makes you think I’m looking to run a mediocre marathon. Just looking to maximize things based on current run volume capabilities
Dirtymangos,
Thanks for the reply. More trying to figure out what to do with the 70-90 minute Saturday run, especially cause it follows a 60-70 minute hill/ speedwork run and precedes a Sun long tempo run. Was thinking add a 30-40 minute easy run on Thursday and turn Sats run into 60 minute easy run
What about breaking one of those into a double-run day? One year I took off from triathlon and trained marathon only and on my speedwork days ran 30 easy in the morning and then did my track work after work. Seemed like I was able to up my volume and stay injury-free.
Interesting. I never thought about that. Usually break up some of my long runs > 2-2.5 hours into double runs
I just don’t see your training plan attacking your main issue with the marathon (late fade). Until you truly want to correct that issue, you will be running mediocre marathons.
You say mediocre. I say running to my current level of fitness. Hitting the wall at 20 could be just as much about pacing as it is about run volume. Last marathon bonk was probably more about nutrition than anything else.
You say mediocre. I say running to my current level of fitness. Hitting the wall at 20 could be just as much about pacing as it is about run volume. Last marathon bonk was probably more about nutrition than anything else.
If you say so.
You say mediocre. I say running to my current level of fitness. Hitting the wall at 20 could be just as much about pacing as it is about run volume. Last marathon bonk was probably more about nutrition than anything else.
HIGHLY unlikely that a marathon bonk is due to nutrition. You’d have to intentionally starve yourself and not eat lunch/dinner the day before to even have a chance at doing that. Triathletes tend to blame everything on nutrition, whereas you go to marathon forums where there are tons of experienced marathon runners, and they never blame race failure on not getting enough on-course nutrition. (Hydration problems can occur on hot race days if course runs out, but that’s usually pretty obvious.)
Pace problems also can cause early bonking, but usually if you’re bonking at mile 20, you could definitely have used more miles in training in addition to running slightly slower in the first 2/3rds of the race.
qualifier but have never trained as a true marathoner. I understand the importance of boosting weekly mileage but personally don’t think my body is ready for 60-80 mile run weeks, at this point. Previous training levels maxed out at two weeks avg around 51-52 miles and that was tri training with a run focus ( my marathon training). Was planning on maxing out at max 60 miles/ week. Was using the bike to augment the overall lack of running volume. Based on the above changed schedule didn’t think it was wise to have 3 long runs back to back. Was thinking add a easy 30-40 minute run on Thursday and make sat an easy 30-40 minute run. Volume would be same just spread out over more days
If you add in biking you won’t need to run 60-80 miles. During marathon training I run 5x’s a week and ride 2x’s a week for 60-90 minutes. I do an hour of intervals, a middle distance easy run (10-15 miles), two recovery runs (4-6 miles), and a long day that will build to 22 miles. Not in that order. On the long day I like to add some tempo in the middle and the end. I found doing a 22 mile run with some 5 minute intervals in the middle, then the last 4 at marathon pace helped prepare me for the last 10k. That run does take some recovery time though. Think I maxed at something like 56 miles. I don’t see the point, nor do I have the time, for strength training. I’m not fast by marathon standards but will be running Boston as a qualifier this year as well.
So, the OP want to know how to properly train for a mediocre marathon. My advice, crossfit. (slightly pink)
this
In all seriousness, you are starting with a half assed marathon plan (only 5 days of running per week) and then trying to integrate it with tri training. What are your goals? if your goal is to run a half-assed marathon (finish), then any plan is really fine. If you are looking for feedback on how to run a good marathon, then don’t try to integrate it with try training. There is no tri, there is do or do not.
There is no “hack” to doing marathons, run a lot, run a lot of miles at or near your goal pace. Don’t spent any serious amount of time doing anything besides running, except maybe some yoga and weights.
You say mediocre. I say running to my current level of fitness. Hitting the wall at 20 could be just as much about pacing as it is about run volume. Last marathon bonk was probably more about nutrition than anything else.
the last two sentences above could very well be the difference between a tough last 10k (which you should expect on an excellent day), and a miserable > minute per mile slow down in the last 10k.
Most everybody agrees that distance per week is key, long runs, tough legs, etc. I’d also practice and attempt to learn what it feels like to take nutrition at pace on longer runs, and learn to notice how and when you “feel it.” Actually, this is where I think triathletes may actually be better than pure runners.
If you’re a better than average swimmer, and, you’ve got the time - a few truly easy swims per week may enhance recovery. Could be with same with a few quick spins on the bike (high cadence, low power).
Best advice you’re gonna get:
DON’T GET INJURED! Duh 
(ahh, that’s what I’d do, get injured that is)
Have a great Patriots day.
Pace was responsible for first collapse. Went out way to fast and could feel by later miles that legs didn’t have the volume to sustain pace.
Recent marathon trained with more volume and had more conservative pacing in the beginning. The wheels started coming off bus st mile 13 and by mile 20, wheels were gone. Second marathon was warmer and I had deviated from nutrition plan.