That ultra runner Kelly Agnew had his wife and a few friends helping him cheat over the years and they all kept in under wraps.
A lot is being made of a few previous transgressions, and that might be appropriate as a reason to begin looking at the evidence to determine whether this win is clean. It is not, however, evidence that this result is not a clean win.
But perhaps not enough is being made of her previous accomplishments in her favor, which seem to be unblemished.
Am I correct that;
She has a marathon personal best of 2:37 and ran 2:40 in the trials.
Is an accomplished triathlete, racing as a professional and boasting finishes in the nine and ten hour range.
She won multiple ultra marathons prior to this race, without any suggestion of malfeasance.
Add to that the complete lack of evidence that the she cheated in this race and I think it is time to give her the credit that is due.
Add to that the complete lack of evidence that the she cheated in this race and I think it is time to give her the credit that is due.
The MI guy needs to re-think his approach. He put up the page apparently within a day or two of the finish, apparently based on a social media furor.
That indicates to me he must not have afforded Ashley any manner of privately forwarding him GPS data or to reply to any other issues before going public.
I believe his prior MO was to perform some due diliegence and allow some “due process” before doing public. I don’t know why he apparently deviated from that pattern this time, and went pure trial-by-internet.
Given he now is apparently unable to find any definitive issue with the GPS data, it seems like it’s time to just pull down that whole page rather than pretend like he’s going to be an advocate for Ashley and “the truth.”
We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS “1:14 is national level elite running. It is 5:40 pace. It is a whisker off of automatic Olympic Trials marathon qualifying via a half marathon, a very high standard” Did the poster come back and correct the record when it was flagged the runner is a 2:36 marathoner who went to the Olympic trials and ran a 2:40 on a slow, windy, hilly course? No, of course not.
That someone else is me. I’ve been away for 4 or 5 pages or so, hence my lack of response. I stand by my post that the 1:14 is clearly bs. She ran 1:14 carrying her phone and listening to music? Doubt it, that’s pack fodder behavior. She conveniently missed the start so did not race alongside and thus was not viewed by the few others doing 5:40 pace? How convenient, a common tactic of modern day Rosie Ruiz’s. She ran 1:14 while also stopping to consult the mapping app on her phone to get her back on course? Doubt it. “The hills were hard so I just ran them harder to get them over with quicker”? Really, that is how elite athletes act? Run faster to get it over with faster rather than run faster because she has the fitness and ability to go faster? Oh, and she was DQed for cutting the course, a minor detail only revealed when others called her out for cheating.
So, yes, I stand by my original post that her 1:14 is clear bullshit. And I also stand by claim in that post that I will not opine on Badwater.
We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS "1:14 is national level elite running.
There is no alleged course cutting. She cut the course, period. Multiple credible witness who were running with her, multiple officials including the RD also confirmed she spoke to them after the race and was very vocal about her 1.14, no mention to anyone she took a “wrong turn” and had to use google maps to find the finish. **She even posted on Instagram about how pleased she was with her time, again no mention of the “wrong turn”. **She only admitted to this, deleting her IG post, when people called her out on it. Do you not think that dressed in pink, with dyed pink hair and hundreds of other runners that no-one would notice when she cut the course…?
It seems Marathon Investigation has been too hasty in questioning her Badwater result and it is legit, but the HM course cutting was deliberate.
And in the IG post, mentioned working hard to get over the “little hills” on the way in. These “little hills” were the part of the course she bypassed and never ran! It’s indefensible.
Yeah, she tried to bluff her way w/ that BS “1:14” result, and got busted. Hard.
That LetsRun link shows that many people she supposedly “passed” never saw her bright pink ponytail pass them.
Not for nothing, but I don’t care how deep in the hurt locker I was, if a little chick w/ bright pink hair passed me in the last few miles of a HM, I’d remember it.
So, no - I do NOT feel bad for her, at all, that people are questioning her Badwater result.
Is it legit?
Maybe? Possibly? Probably?
I have zero problem with her result being scrutinized.
As much as I think this thing sort of needs to exist, did one of his subjects not commit suicide almost immediately following him publishing an article on him/her. I tend to remember much controversy around this, Derek then went silent. Sometimes I think he can get effed.
JFC that’s unreal. People need to get some perspective.
Guy was guilty though, he cheated repeatedly, got caught definitively, denied it even when it was obvious he had been caught, then killed himself.
Incredibly sad, but to suggest he shouldn’t have been called out, nah
I was referring to everyone involved but especially him. It’s all so relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.
Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.
how often has derek been wrong up to date i wonder.
i agree this case all seems premature but i was under the impression that so far he has a good track record.
at the same time your langauage is far from balanced either if i may so, sounds like you have some personal interest here.
My personal interest is with ending Derek’s Witch hunt fantasies that he goes on after the Meza episode. A man took his own life due to pressure that originate from Marathon Investigations. Did he cheat? Yes he did. Did he deserve to have his results disqualified? You Betcha. Did he deserve all of the pressure that came after Derek outing him? No, definitely not. By all accounts he was a pillar within his community and did amazing things to help young people in track as a coach as well as be a practicing physician. It’s been a long time since we had a Marathon Investigations thread kick off, and for good reason. That’s my problem.
Replying to you because it does a decent job illustrating what this thread can and should do. (So did kny, for that matter)
1.) Want to talk about Ashley’s prior course cutting and AAV for a contaminated supplement? Fair game. All on the record and provable.
2.) Badwater – you may scrutinize that result with discussion. But unless you have definitive evidence of cheating or course cutting FOR THIS RACE, you don’t say she definitively cheated or cut the course at Badwater. Innocent until proven guilty.
Same way we approach doping discussions. Please. Thank you.
Carry on.
That LetsRun link shows that many people she supposedly “passed” never saw her bright pink ponytail pass them.
Not for nothing, but I don’t care how deep in the hurt locker I was, if a little chick w/ bright pink hair passed me in the last few miles of a HM, I’d remember it.
IME this isn’t true. There have been numerous experiences where I have passed age-groupers on a lapped course and asked them something and they couldn’t muster a response and had a blank-stare about them. Same of pros well. Some people have good situational awareness in races but the vast majority are terrible. I watched my training partner and friend bike in to the two biggest potholes I have ever seen once and crash right in front of me during a 70.3. I literally watched him (again, head) as I was thinking in my own head, “what is he doing”. There is a reason why medical pulls people off course and not the other way around.
And I myself personally pride myself on situational awareness, it has always been something that I thought I had a specific edge with and used to my advantage because I’m just **NOT **that talented. I once was riding on lap two in Louisville on the back side of the course where there is a narrow winding road where you get some speed before you come into a uphill. I’m NOT a good bike handler by any means, but I watched one person crash tangle up another 7 people but somehow I avoided all those people. People tell me routinely still (outside of sport) that I see things other just don’t see but are right there in front of them, but even I’m not immune. I once dated an extremely stunning female, I saying stunning only because I couldn’t miss or mistake her (like the pink comment), apparently we met after an Ironman and talked for an hour. I had already showered and was in street clothes and she had just finished. I have NO recollection of talking to her, it is actually scary. There were some weird circumstances to the race, but I felt I was more than fully there despite getting into like a 4 man sprint finish for 7, 8, 9, and 10th. Anyway, I met her again and introduced myself to her about a month later, she had the weirdest blank-stare as well at the time, but I would later come to find out she was just taken back by the fact that I didn’t remember the conversation. Race brain is a real thing. And yes I have dozen more concrete examples but that is neither here nor there.
But this is all to say that seeing bright pink hair pass doesn’t do mean anything to me. Even for the crew members who aren’t running. They are so busy, so focused on their task. Regardless, probably the greatest support witness so far is the documentary journalist response pasted in this thread. She is both a racer but also specifically watching (and documenting) the race. She said Ashley looked fantastic pretty much the entire way. Ashley is a bubbly person. I was thinking about this yesterday and I would say she is the bubbliest pro I have ever met. Second is Michelle Vesterby. I was trying to think of a bubbly pro male and I couldn’t come up with one. Maybe people are taken back a bit by how positive and fresh she looked in some of the race videos. Maybe they are bothered by it deep down inside that someone could so sadistically do Badwater and yet be so fresh.
All be the first one to eat crow if it someone comes out that she engaged in an elaborate scheme, given what has been said, and debunked. But I just don’t see it here.
He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.
Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.
how often has derek been wrong up to date i wonder.
i agree this case all seems premature but i was under the impression that so far he has a good track record.
at the same time your langauage is far from balanced either if i may so, sounds like you have some personal interest here.
My personal interest is with ending Derek’s Witch hunt fantasies that he goes on after the Meza episode. A man took his own life due to pressure that originate from Marathon Investigations. Did he cheat? Yes he did. Did he deserve to have his results disqualified? You Betcha. Did he deserve all of the pressure that came after Derek outing him? No, definitely not. By all accounts he was a pillar within his community and did amazing things to help young people in track as a coach as well as be a practicing physician. It’s been a long time since we had a Marathon Investigations thread kick off, and for good reason. That’s my problem.
what pressure did daren put on him . did the guy admit immediately that he cheated and darren kept going publishing data. or did the guy denny he cheated and darren proved him wrong. if it was the first case i would agree with you , otherwise not
We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS "1:14 is national level elite running.
There is no alleged course cutting. She cut the course, period. Multiple credible witness who were running with her, multiple officials including the RD also confirmed she spoke to them after the race and was very vocal about her 1.14, no mention to anyone she took a “wrong turn” and had to use google maps to find the finish. **She even posted on Instagram about how pleased she was with her time, again no mention of the “wrong turn”. **She only admitted to this, deleting her IG post, when people called her out on it. Do you not think that dressed in pink, with dyed pink hair and hundreds of other runners that no-one would notice when she cut the course…?
It seems Marathon Investigation has been too hasty in questioning her Badwater result and it is legit, but the HM course cutting was deliberate.
And in the IG post, mentioned working hard to get over the “little hills” on the way in. These “little hills” were the part of the course she bypassed and never ran! It’s indefensible.
Yeah, she tried to bluff her way w/ that BS “1:14” result, and got busted. Hard.
That LetsRun link shows that many people she supposedly “passed” never saw her bright pink ponytail pass them.
Not for nothing, but I don’t care how deep in the hurt locker I was, if a little chick w/ bright pink hair passed me in the last few miles of a HM, I’d remember it.
So, no - I do NOT feel bad for her, at all, that people are questioning her Badwater result.
Is it legit?
Maybe? Possibly? Probably?
I have zero problem with her result being scrutinized.
It sounds like she was at the front for a lot of the race so it’s quite possible she didn’t need to pass anyone? Plus, lots of passing happens in feed stations where people can sneak through quite easily.
He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.
Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.
how often has derek been wrong up to date i wonder.
i agree this case all seems premature but i was under the impression that so far he has a good track record.
at the same time your langauage is far from balanced either if i may so, sounds like you have some personal interest here.
My personal interest is with ending Derek’s Witch hunt fantasies that he goes on after the Meza episode. A man took his own life due to pressure that originate from Marathon Investigations. Did he cheat? Yes he did. Did he deserve to have his results disqualified? You Betcha. Did he deserve all of the pressure that came after Derek outing him? No, definitely not. By all accounts he was a pillar within his community and did amazing things to help young people in track as a coach as well as be a practicing physician. It’s been a long time since we had a Marathon Investigations thread kick off, and for good reason. That’s my problem.
I get your hate for Derek, however the suicide was the result of a guilty conscience on someone who was guilty and obviously didn’t have all his marbles. To blame Derek for that is ridiculous. Endurance sports organizations suck at rooting out cheaters, mostly because it’s hard. Derek helps in that respect. There is a difference between a witch hunt and the clear scrutiny of a known cheater. Blatant, known cheaters should questioned and scrutinized every freaking time if they want to race. She created her bed and is now sleeping in it.
I’m gonna ask you, on your own, to edit your last sentence, please.
Your first paragraph is fine.
Probably my last post on here (I’ve clocked up a few over a bored weekend of COVID). It’s not a question of blaming Derek or treating him as beyond reproach, it’s not a binary choice. I, like many people on here, am of the generation that grew up before and then grew with the internet. At the grad old age of 42 I’m still learning and thinking about how it operates and what it can do to people. They’re questions that governments are still grappling with, see the European right to be forgotten laws.
Cheaters deserve to have their results stripped. Fair competitors deserve to see their efforts rewarded. Athletes that are accepted into events and perform in compliance with all the rules deserve whatever place they get. People who participate in sport, even people who’ve served a doping ban or cut a course in a local half-marathon, shouldn’t have to accept a bunch of teenagers (LR), or middle-aged men (ST), combing through every detail of their past and present looking for “evidence” that they’re a cheater as the price of admission.
Is that look-a-like her sister? Why is she so tan? Why isn’t her strava public? I have a watch that goes 60 hours, why doesn’t she have a watch that goes 60 hours? She doesn’t have the right build to be able to run 2:40 without doping - too heavy. WHAT AN INSTAGRAM ATTENTION HO. Her crew are probably in on it too. Can someone give me the crew’s contact details? I want to talk to them. Is the look-a-like even capable of running a portion of this race? Where’s HER strava? Why does she look so clean and fresh? They all look like a cult, narcissists always have cults.
That is a true and fair representation of what I’ve seen on Derek’s and his website’s comment section, on LR and ST. This is not an environment I think we should be encouraging, or encouraging Derek to encourage.
And then Meza.
Many of Derek’s targets have been habitual cheats. You’ll need to find a good psychologist to explain why these people do it, I can’t, but it stands to reason that if you tear down a portion of a person like that’s self-image you are doing mental damage to them. You may cheer that, think it’s just and reasonable. I don’t. I enjoyed the MI mysteries in the past but Meza’s case brought home to me dramatically that Derek (and we) are playing with stakes we cannot assess when we participate in witch hunts like that. I like to imagine that if you called every podium finisher Meza robbed, every record holder he dethroned and asked if they would rather have their resume restored or give Meza’s family their husband and father back, every one of them would choose the latter. If you agree with me on that then you can draw your own line between the outcome you want and the conduct most likely to create it. Mine does not run through accusing Ashley Paulson in the absence of evidence.
I’m gonna ask you, on your own, to edit your last sentence, please.
Your first paragraph is fine.
Your forum, your rules. I deleted the paragraph but it was true nonetheless.
Im not responding to anyone specifically and honestly havent been keeping up with all the details. But at the very least the results are either “weird” or Ashley had an all time great closing performance.
To level set Oswaldo Lopez ran the Hennepin 100 mile ultra (fast 100 miler) in 14:22 and Ashley ran the Pony express 100 miler in 17:26. Both of these are fast 100 milers (even though they are different they are both considered fast) and Oswaldo ran it over 3 hours faster.
Yet looking at the closing data Ashley was able to close Badwater almost as fast as Oswaldo when Oswaldo has years of badwater experience and much better/faster performances over ultra distance races. At the very least its odd.
I appreciate it.
Im not responding to anyone specifically and honestly havent been keeping up with all the details. But at the very least the results are either “weird” or Ashley had an all time great closing performance.
To level set Oswaldo Lopez ran the Hennepin 100 mile ultra (fast 100 miler) in 14:22 and Ashley ran the Pony express 100 miler in 17:26. Both of these are fast 100 milers (even though they are different they are both considered fast) and Oswaldo ran it over 3 hours faster.
Yet looking at the closing data Ashley was able to close Badwater almost as fast as Oswaldo when Oswaldo has years of badwater experience and much better/faster performances over ultra distance races. At the very least its odd.
Odd stuff happens. That is why they have races. Different conditions suit different people differently. Stuff happens during race. Were runners going for record, or were they running comfortably?
And, are Oswaldo Lopez and Ivan Lopez the same person?
See an interesting account of the badwater finish, in an earlier post.
Race brain is a real thing. And yes I have dozen more concrete examples but that is neither here nor there.
I’ve had a few similarly scary examples of this. Once after an IM where I thought I was feeling well, but didn’t remember much of what happened the next day. The weirdest personal experience was in the middle of an insanely hard and long TT. At one point I could not figure out where I was or what was going on. I was still pushing power and navigating, but it took me about a minute to even understand I was racing, where I might be racing at and to be halfway able to identify things.
Im not responding to anyone specifically and honestly havent been keeping up with all the details. But at the very least the results are either “weird” or Ashley had an all time great closing performance.
To level set Oswaldo Lopez ran the Hennepin 100 mile ultra (fast 100 miler) in 14:22 and Ashley ran the Pony express 100 miler in 17:26. Both of these are fast 100 milers (even though they are different they are both considered fast) and Oswaldo ran it over 3 hours faster.
Yet looking at the closing data Ashley was able to close Badwater almost as fast as Oswaldo when Oswaldo has years of badwater experience and much better/faster performances over ultra distance races. At the very least its odd.
Odd stuff happens. That is why they have races. Different conditions suit different people differently. Stuff happens during race. Were runners going for record, or were they running comfortably?
And, are Oswaldo Lopez and Ivan Lopez the same person?
See an interesting account of the badwater finish, in an earlier post.
I agree that people do differently in different races. I hate to add more confusion to everything and not really add any clarity but in my mind you have people like Pete, Scott and Oswaldo among others that have run 100 milers 3+ hours faster than she has. And all of a sudden here she not only keeps up with their pace for the end section that gave her the record but ran it faster. This is kind of like someone who is a 3 hour marathoner running the same paces for the closing part of a race as 2:20-2:30 marathoners. It is possible, but is odd and would mean a super incredible performance. And as far as the first hand witness report i took a look but in these types of races its hard for someone who is moving in a car along a race course to be able to track every athlete.