Marathon Investigations Accuses Ashley Paulson

i hate to admit Monty is right:-) and yes this is only a discussion and only one example however it was the one that came to mind - guys like Bruce Fordyce (yeah not a 100 miler guy but the most successful Comrades guy of all time) would say (and still does) that he knew he was in shape to win if he ran sub 25 min at his local club 8km Time Trial…

I should have been clearer upthread that my minor niggle with monty was the perennial belief of fans of one sport that, if their heros just trained for a different sport, they’d obviously be world class there too because X, Y and Z. I don’t think there’s a world class ultra* runner or multisport athlete whose first and primary focus was ultra running or multisport who has a legitimate claim to being a 2:10-2:15 marathoner, as Monty claimed basically all the guys Ashley closed faster than are. There’s one or two athletes who’ve run very fast marathons then turned to ultras, like Reid Coolsaet (2:10 and change), or Max King (2:14 and change) but Walmsley is the best pure trail runner who’s dedicated real time and effort to see what he could run in a road marathon and the answer is 2:15 and change. Which is not 2:10-2:15 and is in fact a world away from 2:10, as any runner would appreciate. We’ll see what Tom Evans can do, I didn’t appreciate he was trying to make the GB team. History and frankly his build suggest he won’t get close, but I’d love to be surprised.

The asterix is because ultra is a broad term. I was referring to long and primarily (but not in Badwater’s case), trail ultras specifically, but didn’t make that clear. Comrades is a near unique race as a good chunk of the field is comprised of truly elite traditional road runners that want to go long, not ultra runners trying to run objectively fast.

But while I’m here 25 minutes for 8k isn’t very notable - I’ve run many 26 minute 5 milers and 25 minutes only equates to a 2:25/26 marathon. Bruce’s marathon PR was actually 2:17 so I don’t think I’m going out on much of a limb to speculate that he’s a good example of someone who got better as things got longer, to a point. At 5 miles, I’d have him in my sights. At the marathon on his best day he’d barely scrape a OTQ B standard. At double marathon distance he’s a 9 times winner of one of the most prestigious races in the world and at 50 miles he was a WR holder. By monty’s logic we can look at his Comrades and 50 mile performances and just spot him a 2:10 PR. Well, maybe. But to me that’s like saying Jonas Vingegaarg is clearly a 29 minute 10k runner who chose a different path. An unprovable theory.

Looks like Derek posted an update on this case, but appears to still be open and ongoing. New information every hour??

Ashley Paulson:
I wanted to post an update and a quick overview of the initial analysis to her Garmin files. What I want to avoid is writing multiple articles, as there are developments and more information every day, or even every hour.
I encourage those that think I posted accusations to re-read the article carefully. Extraordinary results warrant scrutiny. And contrary to what the Race Director posted, that scrutiny has always been a part of the sport and is not limited to female competitors. His statement will be linked in comments.
There is a lot of misconstrued data from her Garmin data. I’ve tried to respond in the threads, but it is not effective. So, I will address the most common concerns people had with her data.

  1. Summary Date: Edited. On both of her Garmin links, at the bottom of the page, it shows Summary Data: Edited. Many have used this to allege she manipulated the file. I have confirmed that if you change the privacy of a run on the Garmin application that it will show that the file has been edited. The fact that the file shows edited does not mean that she improperly manipulated the file.
  2. Stride length. The summary page shows a large variance between her average stride length between the two files. The second file shows a much longer average stride length than the first file. The second file also includes the long uphill stretch. This average includes the 5 minutes + when Ashley finished her run to when she stopped her watch. The GPS signal jumped around while she wasn’t really moving. This calculated an average stride length of 24.26 for this section which inflated the average stride length for the entire entry. Throwing out that result, her stride length looks reasonable.
  3. GPS dying. Why 2 entries? Her model of GPS shows that it will last up to 26 hours in full GPS mode. We know she had heart monitor and cadence on which also limits battery life. It is reasonable that it would have needed a short boost. Granted this could be done while running with it using a portable charger. The two entries in itself is not evidence of any wrongdoing.
  4. Heart rate - this data is a bit more fuzzy - but I hesitate to read too much into wrist based heart monitors. Her heart rate is very low in some tough conditions. The final few miles were in the 150s, which seems reasonable. Nothing here that I can use one way or another.
    I will include more detail on these points and others when I publish a follow up article. I will also link Chris’s statement and any additional information. I expect within the next week that there will be some public statements from other competitors and their crew.
    -Derek

My Fenix 5x died at 13:28:26 hours at IMAZ this year (I didn’t finish for another two hours). I’m gonna hazard that watches don’t reach their advertised max battery life unless they’re brand new.

So we’re down to waiting for witness statements. I’ve been consistent in noting they could change my mind, and maybe Derek felt comfortable posting what he did knowing what those witness statements will be. But until they’re out there remains no evidence she cheated at Badwater and a pretty good data set suggesting she didn’t.

“That seems really fast - how did she go so fast?”

1] She ACTUALLY went really fast
2} She ran a shorter route between checkpoints
3} She got in a van, which drove her to the next checkpoint - quickly but not TOO quickly - then she said “oops! my GPS was weird”

What do we have data/receipts on?

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/images/users/images/8/50018-large_yasso.jpg

So we’re down to waiting for witness statements. I’ve been consistent in noting they could change my mind, and maybe Derek felt comfortable posting what he did knowing what those witness statements will be. But until they’re out there remains no evidence she cheated at Badwater and a pretty good data set suggesting she didn’t.

Witnesses can also lie.

Witnesses can also lie.

On the other hand, you could ask “Did you see her pass you?”
“It was dark; she may have? I wouldn’t have known”

Unlike others, who have ran a marathon in full daylight, and claimed top podium spots without anyone remembering them going by, nor photographic evidence of them making any sort of pass

If Ashley cheated, we need to think about where/when/how - why, is up to her therapist

We can’t just say “that’s too fast; and she’s already been accused as a witch before”

Badwater RD chimes in:

(tl:dr - Badwater consistently has outlier performances. He believes this was a legit performance.)

“Badwater 135: Big Fish in a Small Pond, Beware!”

  • Some History and Context about "Outlier” Performances at the World’s Toughest Foot Race
    For the past 23 years, it has been my great pleasure to lead the team which hosts the Badwater 135 Ultramarathon. Since our very first race in 2000, Badwater 135 runners have been giving amazing - and sometimes astonishing - performances on the race course.

Blah, blah, blah…

In 2007, Goggins finished in third place with a time of 25:49:40, behind new course record breaker Valmir Nunes and runner-up (again) Akos Konya, something nobody would have predicted given Goggins’ physique and his limited running background.

In 2007, Jamie Donaldson took over 41 hours during her rookie debut, but then she returned in 2008 to win in a time of 26:51:33, a shocking 17 hour improvement and a new women’s record. She won three years in a row and broke her own women’s record in 2010 with a 25:53:07. (She then retired from the sport.)

In 2013, a "previously unknown” 49-year-old Australian named Grant Maughan entered the race and placed second, just 15 minutes behind the winner, in 24:53:57. (He would take second again the following year, and eventually finish seven times.)

More blah, blah…

The previous Badwater 135 race director told me that he didn’t let in non-English speakers, plus the race field was very small. But when I promoted the race world-wide, five foreigners came in and set the bar much higher at our first race. …But two years later, as ultra running grew in Brazil - in large part because of our sister race, Brazil 135 - the Brazilian Valmir Nunes broke Jurek’s record by nearly two hours.)

Athletes who are just exceptional and they** “discovered” their incredible talent - as we discovered them - because of Badwater 135,** such as….Grant Maughan.

Yours in sport,
Chris Kostman,
Chief Adventure Officer and Race Director
AdventureCORPS, Inc.,
organizers of the world-wide series of Badwater® races

i have nothing to say apart from that it annoys me when people who dont understand what world class is use the word world class a 9.18 in cosumel 2017 was not world class its solid pro level but a few percent of world class

Kostman may well be right in having faith in Paulson’s performance. At this point, I’m inclined to view it as legit, but Kostman can really talk bullshit in his justification and the spin he puts on Badwater. He really should get his facts right about if he’s going to cite other athletes careers as a defence.

Valmir Nunes’ 2007 course record had SFA to do with Badwater having a “sister race” in Brazil 6 months prior which, according to Kostman, was “in large part” responsible for the growth in Brazilian ultra running at the time. Only 12 runners finished that race! Nunes’ 2 hour race record at Badwater was both anticipated and predictable as he was arguably most talented and experienced ultra runner to run Badwater. From 1991 to 1995, Nunes was undefeated in eleven consecutive 100km races, (including World Champs at del Passatore, Italy and Winschotten Netherlands in 6:18), before twice winning Spartathlon (246km) and had twice winning 24 Hour races with distances in excess of 270km. But yeah, Badwater sister race attracting a handful of runners is what revolutionises Brazilian ultra running, not one of the all-time greats being a Brazilian and dominating the sport on the international stage, and then turning up at your race which had long upheld an overtly racist entry policy! .

Jamie Donaldson’s ultra career neither started or finished at Badwater. She had two sub-24 hour finishes at Leadville (2nd and 4th place), and win at the Umstead 100 mile in a speedy 16:56 prior to her Badwater debut. She raced at least 16 ultras after her final appearance at Badwater, including finishing second at Leadville 100 Mile and representing USA at the 24 Hour Worlds.
Badwater hardly “discovered” Grant Maughan. His debut Badwater performance came midway through a remarkable string of twenty ultras of 100 to 150 miles that Grant raced from 2006 to 2008. As a fellow Aussie, I’d say the first 19 of those races were just training for Grant’s second place at Coast to Kosciuszko 240km in December 2008. :slight_smile:

And unless Kostman is seeing groups of runners dying at Badwater, he really should leave postulations about punctuated equilibrium to biologists…or at least to people who understand what it is.

This is a really super post.

Here’s one eyewitness report:


”I was reluctant to post publicly and have expressed privately what I’ll put below. And I’m just going to discuss what I personally witnessed and then make a point or two that might help with the framing.

I didn’t know Ashley personally before the race and didn’t meet her crew until about mile 110-111 (more on that).

Firstly, I was at Badwater as part of helping the crew filming the documentary on the race and 10 runners being spotlighted. My role was mainly to put them in position to get the best shots based on course knowledge and gauging the athletes’ performances dynamically as the race unfolded. This is my 8th time at Badwater during the race (not counting training trips). I’ve raced it 4 times and I’ve paced/crewed runners to 2nd, 5th, and 5th (1st female, CR—one before the one Ashley broke). I DNF’d at Stovepipe Wells (mile 42 for those not familiar) in 2019. Because of that, I was able to drive ahead on the course and watch both the male CR get set and the female CR get shattered. They also went 1-2 overall in the race.

Coming into the race, I carefully studied the field in preparation for filming. And I made my prediction of the top 3 of the women’s field. I didn’t order them, but the 3 I chose ended up being exactly the top 3 in the final results for what that’s worth. Mind you this was the deepest women’s field ever, and anything can happen in those conditions.

Now for what I saw:

—Ashley was just behind Yoshi and Ivan for most of Badwater Road (miles 0-17). I thought it was aggressive and could lead to a blow-up late and told the film crew that.

—But then she came through Stovepipe looking strong. The start of what I think best explains her final time began. She just crushed that 17 mile climb to Towne Pass. So much so that we let her go ahead to Panamint (mile 72).

—my understanding from friends present at Panamint who know their stuff is that she went through the timing station with a minimal stop and proceeded on the climb up Father Crowley and later to Darwin. So her arrival-to-arrival between those stations looks extra quick.

—I got to Panamint just after she departed. I’ve never seen heat like that at Panamint, and it kept getting worse and a considerable headwind picked up. Yoshi, Ivan Lopez, and Ashley got out of the valley before the conditions intensified.

—I stayed for about 2 hours, and quite simply each top 10 runner’s stop was the longest on average that I’ve ever seen. Understandably—it was brutal. They were being strategic in looking after themselves with 63 miles and the 2 worst climbs remaining.

—I drove the film crew ahead to film the battle for 4th and 5th, both with the drone and set up on the tripod. I even filmed the crew filming on my phone.

—Ashley was about 2 to 2.5 miles ahead at mile 111 or so. We were in an unmarked SUV that neither she nor the crew would have seen, as we weren’t tracking her before that. The film crew got more ground and aerial shots of her while I filmed her on my phone and chatted with her crew. Ashley was in great spirits and I told her crew that I’d seen the best of the best here, and she looked as good as any of them.

—I also told them that Ivan Lopez was just 1 mile ahead and that she could catch him for 2nd (he and the crew vehicle were plainly visible along that open stretch).

—We then quickly drove that mile and filmed and interacted with Ivan. He looked a little rougher than Ashley but was moving well.

—I told the film crew that I thought she’d catch him on the Portal Road before the switchbacks.

—We then went to the finish and filmed Yoshi winning. I’ve not seen anyone really note this, but he struggled a bit (especially on the switchbacks) and finished with a heavy limp. What a champ though! Wire-to-wire again.

—We then drove back down. Ivan was 2/3 of the way up switchback 2. I was amazed that he had held Ashley off, both into Lone Pine and thus far on the climb. He had a really strong power-hike pace going on that incredibly steep grade. Each of the first 2 switchbacks is about a mile—so you go from mile 131 at the gate to roughly 133, then you turn and start heading more IN to the Whitney Portal, before the final S-bend climb into the parking lot where the finish line is located.

—We drove down the rest of switchback 2 and in the dirt lot where 1 turns into 2 was Ashley’s vehicle. And Ashley was running by with her pacer. And I mean RUNNING running, not glorified hiking with a different arm carriage. This is a 15-20% grade for those unfamiliar. I encouraged her again and told her Ivan was right there.

—the rest is history. Ivan held the margin and Ashley set the CR.

—Having observed her on parts of 2 of the 3 climbs, it’s quite apparent that she’s a great climber. I’ve seen elites run the flatter sections slightly faster, but she’s obviously in the upper tier in this area as well. Finally, since this is just about Badwater, she appeared to manage the heat well, which is likely the most important variable to control there.

People can debate anything else they want about a person’s history, etc. I’m staying out of that. This was just meant to provide more firsthand insight into Ashley’s race.

It’s worth also noting that A. You can’t use the Transitive Property and say that this means Ashley would win the Spartathlon or the 24H worlds. Or that because someone else did, there’s a high correlation to how they’ll do at Badwater. Both position and their time. Some people are just really suited to this race, in the same way that if you put Kilian Jornet or Courtney Dauwalter on a mountain trail, get ready for magic to happen. B. That every historical Badwater time was the best that person COULD have done on that day. People have won the race and left HOURS on the course—but their A goal was winning and they protected the win. Or they ended up very far ahead (or far between) runners and it was harder to keep that “hunter” mentality late when energy is lower.

As much as I think this thing sort of needs to exist, did one of his subjects not commit suicide almost immediately following him publishing an article on him/her. I tend to remember much controversy around this, Derek then went silent. Sometimes I think he can get effed.

JFC that’s unreal. People need to get some perspective.

Guy was guilty though, he cheated repeatedly, got caught definitively, denied it even when it was obvious he had been caught, then killed himself.

Incredibly sad, but to suggest he shouldn’t have been called out, nah

It is a harsh world out there when a little course cutting and a positive drug test mean that people start questioning your performances.

From what I’ve read it seems she definitely and deliberately cut the course during the HM despite it being well marked and with a number of other runners running with her, skipping a hilly section and then tried to cover it up at the finish line. She then claimed the 1.14 time with a report on IG, but changed it when she was called out. One of the guys she supposedly overtook confirmed she never overtook him, but also confirmed two marathons she did were legitimate (it was claimed she rode a bike) as he ran with her the whole way.

She’s obviously a talented runner, but had a brain fart that day and decided she couldn’t be fucked running some hills and tried to get away with it. I reckon the Badwater race is probably legit. Re the doping - I couldn’t find enough info on the net regarding her failed test and then her being cleared. I would imagine if she’s going to cut a course then she’d have no problem doping. But who knows.

It is a harsh world out there when a little course cutting and a positive drug test mean that people start questioning your performances.

How seriously does someone have to break the rules, for their results to be scrutinised? I think it’s absolutely permitted for people to question an outlier performance, especially when the said athlete has been accused of breaking rules in the past. Whatever the outcome, more attention will be paid to Ashley’s performances in the future!

Results should be scrutinized. Ideally by motivated, professional RDs to whom concerned competitors and invested fans could take any concerns they had. If any particular RD didn’t do a good job athletes who care should avoid their race.

Derek’s blog is only called “marathon investigation” and he’s now falling back heavily on the fact that his post technically didn’t accuse her of anything. Camille Herron is all over the comments claiming “I’m just another data scientist! I like numbers!” Both of them are completely absolving themselves of the fact they kick-started this trial by internet and are directly responsible for the fact that it’s moved way beyond cool skepticism and careful analysis and into outright character assassination. Given his history I’m floored Derek is this reckless. I actually think ST is better than the internet average but from this thread alone:

We’ve had multiple people including longtime posters like monty assume that the fact her Garmin data was edited is conclusive evidence she cheated only for that to be firmly debunked (that happens when you change permissions). Only monty acknowledged that allegation was wrong and then in the most passive way possible (by posting Derek’s own clarification)

We’ve had multiple people including monty assume that Derek was correct to claim that she closed faster than all but one man in history. She didn’t. Derek was confused about how Camille cut the data. Even Derek fixed his post, none of the ST posters have come back on the thread to walk their allegations back.

We’ve had monty derisively refer to her as “some non-elite woman”, just yuck.

We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS “1:14 is national level elite running. It is 5:40 pace. It is a whisker off of automatic Olympic Trials marathon qualifying via a half marathon, a very high standard” Did the poster come back and correct the record when it was flagged the runner is a 2:36 marathoner who went to the Olympic trials and ran a 2:40 on a slow, windy, hilly course? No, of course not.

We’ve got troll level posts like: “gtfoh with this shit. she cheated, we just gotta get the evidence to prove it.”

It’s just ugly.

He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.

Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.

Camille Herron has double double letters; Ashley Paulson has none - that’s all I need to know LOL
.

He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.

Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.

how often has derek been wrong up to date i wonder.
i agree this case all seems premature but i was under the impression that so far he has a good track record.

at the same time your langauage is far from balanced either if i may so, sounds like you have some personal interest here.

He’s also deleting comments that call him out and blocking people from commenting. So perhaps we should just throw this trash out, the trash being Derek. If you can’t stand scrutiny over your stupidity, maybe don’t be a chode? If he can invade someone else’s life, we can leave a few comment scrutinizing his shoddy work.

Also, Camille Herron leading this charge is such trash. Lost a lot of respect.

how often has derek been wrong up to date i wonder.
i agree this case all seems premature but i was under the impression that so far he has a good track record.

at the same time your langauage is far from balanced either if i may so, sounds like you have some personal interest here.

I don’t recall him ever being wrong. But I don’t readily recall him posting a vague “I’m not saying but people are saying” post of this sort either (maybe about Jornet and Everest? I haven’t gone back). It’s just weird. I’m not sure there’s any value in speculating but part of me wonders if he was so tickled by the opportunity to show that he corresponds with Camille that he threw up a post he ordinarily wouldn’t have.

We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS "1:14 is national level elite running.

There is no alleged course cutting. She cut the course, period. Multiple credible witness who were running with her, multiple officials including the RD also confirmed she spoke to them after the race and was very vocal about her 1.14, no mention to anyone she took a “wrong turn” and had to use google maps to find the finish. She even posted on Instagram about how pleased she was with her time, again no mention of the “wrong turn”. She only admitted to this, deleting her IG post, when people called her out on it. Do you not think that dressed in pink, with dyed pink hair and hundreds of other runners that no-one would notice when she cut the course…?

It seems Marathon Investigation has been too hasty in questioning her Badwater result and it is legit, but the HM course cutting was deliberate.

We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS "1:14 is national level elite running.

There is no alleged course cutting. She cut the course, period. Multiple credible witness who were running with her, multiple officials including the RD also confirmed she spoke to them after the race and was very vocal about her 1.14, no mention to anyone she took a “wrong turn” and had to use google maps to find the finish. **She even posted on Instagram about how pleased she was with her time, again no mention of the “wrong turn”. **She only admitted to this, deleting her IG post, when people called her out on it. Do you not think that dressed in pink, with dyed pink hair and hundreds of other runners that no-one would notice when she cut the course…?

It seems Marathon Investigation has been too hasty in questioning her Badwater result and it is legit, but the HM course cutting was deliberate.

And in the IG post, mentioned working hard to get over the “little hills” on the way in. These “little hills” were the part of the course she bypassed and never ran! It’s indefensible.

We’ve had someone else say her 1:14 half marathon (the alleged course cutting one) was clearly BS "1:14 is national level elite running.

There is no alleged course cutting. She cut the course, period. Multiple credible witness who were running with her, multiple officials including the RD also confirmed she spoke to them after the race and was very vocal about her 1.14, no mention to anyone she took a “wrong turn” and had to use google maps to find the finish. She even posted on Instagram about how pleased she was with her time, again no mention of the “wrong turn”. She only admitted to this, deleting her IG post, when people called her out on it. Do you not think that dressed in pink, with dyed pink hair and hundreds of other runners that no-one would notice when she cut the course…?

It seems Marathon Investigation has been too hasty in questioning her Badwater result and it is legit, but the HM course cutting was deliberate.

Strike alleged, that’s fine. I do buy 95% she ran the wrong way at that event. I can’t really wrap my head around the psychology of doing so deliberately when she’s already running at a pretty high level and bound to be caught, but my only point was that she has the chops that 1:14 is possible. Very very fast but possible.