Marathon Fueling Plan Critique

Triathlon Forum
1

“It’s all fun and games until you f*cking bonk.”
Feedback would be appreciated on the fueling plan listed below. Sub-elite men (~2:18-2:26) seem to be perfect candidates for epic bonks. We are capable of running at a relatively high % of VO2 max for long periods of time, AND we’re out on the course for 10-20 minutes longer than the world class guys (and we don’t weigh less that a 6th grader). I’m 6-1 150 lb (weight in the quads) and will have ~20 wks of 85-95 miles/wk (cycling down to 75 every 3rd wk) of running in the bank. A couple of questions:

  1. Training - the only runs I’m fueling before/during are the two quality sessions each week. Generally drinking ~12 oz. gatorade before the 15-18 miles quality on Wed AM. Sunday (22 mi with 14-16 @ MP 1-3 mi @ 1/2 marathon pace mixed in + warm up & CD), generally drinking 10 oz before the run, then 2-3 X ~4 oz gatorade during the 21-23 mile. Tried a gel yesterday (with no water) and actually seemed to make be feel MORE bonked.

Here is the plan for race day (note I’m not fast enough to be able to provide my own nutrition, only course provided stuff). Race is on 11/20 (Philly), should be very cool conditions. I should be ready to run 2:22-2:24.
Gatorade @ Start (8 oz)
Gatorade @ 2.2 mi (4 oz)
Water @ 5.1 mi (4 oz)
Gatorade @ 7.1 mi (4 oz)
Water (4 oz) + Cliff Shot @ 9.8
Water (4 oz) + caffeine pill (200mg) @ 11.1
Gatorade (4 oz) @ 13.5
Gatorade (4 oz) @ 14.7
Water (4 oz) @ 16.9
Water (4 oz) + Gu Roctane @ 18.4 (I’m going to carry this in my key pocket)
Gatorade (4oz) @19.5
Gatorade (4 oz) @ 21.1
Water (4 oz) + Cliff shot @ 22.2
Gatorade (4 oz) @ 24.4
5-6 Beers + 2-3 lb pizza @26.2

Thoughts? This may be my last real crack at a good marathon for awhile, help me get the fueling right!

2

Brian, paulo, dd anyone?

3

Did you calculate how much you will pee?

4

I’m by no means a 2:24 marathoner, but I think you are seriously over-thinking this. It might end up that you take nutrition just like that but you should not need to plan it to that level of detail. Do you plan your runs out like that?

It appears your goal is to get a little bit of energy in many many times. I think that’s the smart way to go but do it however you can. I try to do the same thing but my approach is to always have a gel in my hand. Every time I see a water stop, I take a little bit of gel and wash it down with water or gatorade, depending on how I feel. I probably go through 3 or 4 gels in a race. The idea is the same though. Get a little bit of sugar, many, many times.

5

This seems like a huge increase in fluids based on your training nutrition. Remember, nothing new on race day.

6

just grab a quick sip of whatever sounds good, at each aid station man.

7

“I think you are seriously over-thinking this” - yes, perhaps that is the case, but come race day it is nice to just execute and roll on autopilot. Thinking takes energy too. I went into the last marathon with zero plan and ended up going through the half in 1:13 and the second half in NOT 1:13. It was a bonk for the ages. After the race I thought that it was a complete jackass move on my part to devote all those hours and $ just to deflate to drag carcass the last 7 miles. Probably not going to freak out if it is not exactly according to that plan, was more interested if any of the fast guys on here thought it was in the realm of a reasonable plan. Last race I got my fueling advice from a 2:14 guy, and it would have been perfect except I have about 20 lbs and 10 more minutes to deal with.

8

how do you manage to consume fluids with 4oz accuracy on the run? I usually spill a bunch all over myself

do you write this down or memorize it?

9

take your 26.2 plan and apply it to every other aid station. You’ll be fine.

10

how do you manage to consume fluids with 4oz accuracy on the run? I usually spill a bunch all over myself

do you write this down or memorize it?

I was always taught that 4 oz was about a mouthful.

To the OP, I don’t think this is too complicated at all. I like to carry my own gel, and can usually cram at least 3 in a small pocket and then I use on course stuff if I get hungry before my regularly scheduled “meals”…

For a guy that’s only going to be running for 2.5 hours, I would spend as much time planning pre-race nutrition as well. Just my 2 cents.

11

OK, you bonked on zero plan but did you actually manage to take in nutrition or not? Did you get a lot of water/gatorade/gel? Was it hot?

The way to execute on autopilot in a marathon is not to plan it to death. It is to ***practice ***it. Go on some longer, MP runs with a couple of gels and wearing – if you must - one of those water holder belts. Sure it will slow you down a bit but it will let you practice this nutrition plan. Or do a run or two like this on some sort of a loop that goes by your own personal water stop.

Personally, I don’t think it matters much if you take 4 oz of water here instead of 4 oz of Gatorade there as long as you get the sugar in over the course of the race. I don’t think it really affects your performance that much. It’s what you do in the aggregate that really matters. And mostly (my opinion) what makes people blow up in the marathon is just plain going out too fast. Yes, lack of nutrition can make you bonk but if you bonked with 7 full miles to go – you definitely went out too fast. No amount of sugar you consume is going to buy you 7 miles in a marathon.

You say you should be able to run 2:22 - 2:24. How do you know this? From previous marathons or from shorter races? Because if it’s from shorter races, well, I think you experiencing a phenomena that many marathoners do. Marathon predictors suck. You can hit all of your predicted times in races ranging from 1 mile to 30k no problem and the have all kinds of trouble in the marathon. The marathon is different. It can take YEARS to get it right. I’ve seen so many people experience this.

Assuming I’m correct – and you haven’t already run a couple of, say, 2:27-2:30 marathons, I think you might be better off just going out easy. Don’t go out at 5:25-5:30 pace, give yourself a mile or two of just “easy” – think like 5:35-5:40 type of easy. Try to keep the effort that easy for as long as you can. If you do it right and you are truly in 5:22 - 5:24 shape, that same effort should start yielding 5:25 - 5:30 pace within the first few miles all by itself. And if it doesn’t, maybe you are not in the shape you think you are.

12

I am not nearly as fast but have bonked and succeeded.

I have spent the last two months really trying to dial in nutrition. this is what I have come up with that works for me.

gel 5 minuted prior to start.
gel at 40 minutes
gel at 80 minutes the gels at 30 minute intervals till done ( for me 2 more)

I will do gatorade at every other aid station.

I mix the gels into a gel flask with water and this makes it easier to get down and doesn’t make taking it dependent on the proximity of an aid station. I carry the flask in my hand.

I have been practicing this routine on my long runs ( in which I encorporate a lot of tempo and race pace) and it has worked well.

Make sure you don;t do anything new on the race day.

13

Agreed on the going out easy and stay on a conservative pace plan for at least the first 10, regardless of what is going on tactically. It is nice to hear it from a second source though. Next to zero warm-up race morning, I want to feel a bit groggy for the first 3-4 miles then gradually open it up. I understand it is all about getting to 20 in one piece. No I did not take my mile time and plug it into a website. You really never KNOW (or else why bother to run the race?), but based on some long (18mi) MP runs this is not a stretch time range. The real dress rehearsal training sessions start this weekend, that’s why I came to ST to run a schematic fueling plan up the pole. I’ve got diy aid station and a 3 mile road loop all lined up. I think it is OK to sweat these details. OCD tendencies asside, you don’t get it done at this level by just showing up and going along for the ride. Well, perhaps some guys can, but not me.

14

You have enough running experience to be able to run a 2:20 but you haven’t figured out how to eat and drink yet?

15

I think the point is he has seems to have the talent to run 2:24 but not necessarily the experience yet. And that would put him in larger company than you think. You would be amazed at some of the shoot-from-the-hip race plans I’ve heard from guys who are legitimate threats to make the Olympic trials (or at least get within striking distance).

16

I take a gu or a pack of sport beans every 4 or 5 miles and drink at each aid station (unless for some reason I really don’t feel like drinking, best not to force it). I take whichever sounds better at the time, gatorade or water, but try to have a bias towards gatorade for extra calories. Thanks for starting this thread though, reminded me that I should probably drink some gatorade when I run and also try some clif shots since that is what they are offering at Phili. Good luck getting your time.

17

Given all the laughable overanalysis about abso-f’ing-lutely ridiculous minutiae that goes on here constantly, I think it’s amusing that people are taking potshots because you’re trying to dial in something pretty important. Kudos for smart planning.

Take this with a grain of salt (which reminds me, planning on any magic placebo electrolyte supplementation?) because I’m in a different postal code than you, but just wanted to throw a few things out there:

  1. I know you didn’t say it, but there is no f’ing way a mouthful is 4 oz. I’d say that’s more like 2 decent mouthfuls plus 1 decent sip. Although I suppose that would depend on the mouth. Some people, ahem, have gone so far as to measure what a sip and a mouthful is for them.

Which leads right into my next point:

  1. Some people have also discovered that for them (not everyone), it’s important to get an appropriate amount of water into their gut when they take in a cliff blok or gel. And that if they’re going to take a full gel at once, they need to chase it with way more water than they’d think to make it an isotonic solution that agrees with their gut. That might explain the “MORE bonked” feeling.

You’ve got the Clif Blok ratio about right (1 Blok = 8g of carbs, chase with ~4 oz of water). But to get the same 6-8% carb ratio right with that gel, you either need to pound ~14 ozs of water, or split it in half so you only need to take in 7 ozs of water.

Good luck!

18

Wow…you are way way WAY over-thinking this!

Before I give you my $.02 regarding your nutrition, are you 100% sure you want to aim for a 2:22-2:24? The reason I ask is that I’d rather see a 1st time marathoner err on the conservative side & target a 2:29:59 (assuming you *think *you’re in 2:22 shape) & come on here the day after Philly, moaning that you should have gone harder. The flip-side is you’re really not ready to run a 2:22 & shuffle home in 3:05 or DNF.

I’d always choose the former.

Now regarding your nutritional plan…for what it’s worth, I work very closely w/ an athlete who had basically the same target as you in Philly '08 (Craig Segal):

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/50314_190659165236_3911883_n.jpg

Craig finished 4th o’all & as you can tell from the pic it was a super cold year (even by Philly standards). In reviewing our notes from the race, this is verbatim what he wrote:

I took accel gel every 30 minutes. So 4 in total. As for drinking, I took gatorade and water haphazardly, but I drank before I felt like I needed it.

If you know anything about my programs, you know I am ALL about planning…but the 1-line sentence above was the plan.

The plan you’ve outlined looks more like an IM marathon program, in 90F vs the program for a 2:22 marathoner, hoping to hold <5:30 pace in 40F temps. Your plan has a total of 52+oz of fluid which works out to >22oz per hour. Have you ever tried to consume 22oz /hr while running <5:30 pace? That is a TON of fluid! Furthermore, if you’re on pace, the last 4mi is going to take you <22mins, so there’s no point in taking in Shots & Gatorade w/ such a short period of time remaining.

My suggestion would to take the plan you have & edit it down to something like this:

*Clif Shot or Roctane every 5-7 miles
*Sip Gatorade and/or water as needed

Unless it’s exceptionally warm, you’re not going to need that much Gatorade/fluids.

& just to say it again (& I know nothing about you, so maybe you are in 2:22 shape…but please understand my skepticism), I know of <5 triathletes who have gone <2:25 in an open marathon as it’s not an easy task. As such, be REALLY sure you’re ready to attempt that & don’t be *that guy *who goes out in 1:11 & comes back in 2:11.

19

many thanks for the replies, even the smart ass ones. Gotta love the 'twitch. MOST runners with the ability to run 2:20 are pretty clueless fueling wise. If you are a low/mid teen’s guy it is probably with mcmillan, hansons, zap, et al. and you’ve got professional hand-holders & personal elite bottles. If you’re a low 2:30’s guy you are probably a bit older and have done a few races to calibrate your routine. The no mans land of 2:20’s (or 1:07 - 1:12 1/2 marathon) is full of guys that probably are not paying the bills with the sport, but still very committed (sound familiar, elite triathlon age groupers?).

Regardless, the inputs are very much appreciated. I was not planning on writing the plan on my arm and stopping at each station until exactly 4.0 oz was consumed like some nut job, those were just rough numbers to frame the discussion. The plan will be to take a few sips of gatorade at each station and a gel every 30 min, water with the gels. Like I said, we’ll see in a few weeks if my pace guesstimates are on or not. That’s part of the fun. Will check back in a couple of months!

20

BrianPBN wrote:

My suggestion would to take the plan you have & edit it down to something like this:

*Clif Shot or Roctane every 5-7 miles
*Sip Gatorade and/or water as needed

That is my plan (actually a Lemon Sublime GU packet). Been working on it for the last 5 weeks.