So I decided to attempt MAF training in preparation for my first full distance race in late April. I definitely didn’t start from scratch, but I didn’t really start a focused training routine until late December, so 17-18 weeks of prep.
When I started with MAF, I noticed that the bike wasn’t too hard, swimming was significantly harder, and running was shockingly hard. When running I couldn’t believe what I felt was a recovery run was at like 160-168 BPM, which was nowhere near how my perceived effort felt. The running has been quite a process, it’s required some walking when I peak out (the slightest hill gets the spike). I’ve gotten to the point where I’m now able to run pretty much the whole time at a painfully slow 9:15/mile pace without surpassing my 151 BPM.
What I’m curious about is whether or not I didn’t give myself enough lead in time to do MAF. Is 17 weeks really enough time for MAF to take effect? Do I avoid all high intensity workouts? Am I wasting my time chasing something that is going to leave me unprepared.
So far I have noticed that I can essentially go forever on the run without really feeling tired or fatigued. The swim has scene my times come down with essentially similar efforts. The bike seems about the same. It’s still super early in the process, but I just don’t want to show up on race day with a 9:15/mile.
My thought process was to be patient with MAF and then pursue some high intensity stuff sort of pre-taper (approximately 3-4 weeks out from the race). So if anybody has experience with MAF and can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.
I presume pretty high. At 151 I would almost be at threshold.
I did a half last year (after many years of full races) and as I was feeling ‘lazy’ any of my training that wasn’t ‘hard’ was basically top of zone 1.
Pulled out a 4.4x after a crap swim (3 I think) which for a 10ish IM finisher seems pretty reasonable.
When I did it back in 2014 I went from a 9:30mi in the heat to about 8:20 over the course of 10-12weeks. Was it heat adaptation was it maf I don’t know… Maybe both.
Slowing down won’t hurt you that’s for sure… I was able to put in some 20h weeks like that. I did some speed work towards the end though. Contrary to the maf dogma you the world won’t end if you go 2 beats over maf.
In a race go by feel… Forget the maf limit.
The run is harder to adapt. Bike felt too hard at maf… Was pushing 85-90% FTP which I could never hold for an IM. I’d say try it… The very least it will allow you to se a good aerobic base and help you recover and put some good volume in.
So I decided to attempt MAF training in preparation for my first full distance race in late April. I definitely didn’t start from scratch, but I didn’t really start a focused training routine until late December, so 17-18 weeks of prep.
When I started with MAF, I noticed that the bike wasn’t too hard, swimming was significantly harder, and running was shockingly hard. When running I couldn’t believe what I felt was a recovery run was at like 160-168 BPM, which was nowhere near how my perceived effort felt. The running has been quite a process, it’s required some walking when I peak out (the slightest hill gets the spike). I’ve gotten to the point where I’m now able to run pretty much the whole time at a painfully slow 9:15/mile pace without surpassing my 151 BPM.
What I’m curious about is whether or not I didn’t give myself enough lead in time to do MAF. Is 17 weeks really enough time for MAF to take effect? Do I avoid all high intensity workouts? Am I wasting my time chasing something that is going to leave me unprepared.
So far I have noticed that I can essentially go forever on the run without really feeling tired or fatigued. The swim has scene my times come down with essentially similar efforts. The bike seems about the same. It’s still super early in the process, but I just don’t want to show up on race day with a 9:15/mile.
My thought process was to be patient with MAF and then pursue some high intensity stuff sort of pre-taper (approximately 3-4 weeks out from the race). So if anybody has experience with MAF and can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.
Most of us are not Mark Allen with 15+ years of endruance base, doing all kinds of racing and intervals week in and week out right at the redline on the verge of injury and exhaustion.
Mark Allen needed to be reigned in and needed a long period with a ceiling on his intensity to let his body regenerate from where he could springboard to run 2:39 and beat Dave Scott at Kona after his 20 race winning streak on this program back in 1989,
The problem is most of us are not Mark and we don’t “need” to be reigned in, because we’ve never pushed the limit.
I personally tried in in 1994 I already had 15 years of racing track, running, and tris by then, and was racing pretty well every weekend on top of weekly track sessions (also at the red line), bike TT’s, hill climbs and hammer till you drop masters sessions. I needed the same as Mark…I ended up with a lid on my intensity for months and then had my PB Olympic Tri off zero intervals in all three sports…just a few running accelerations on gradual downhills to work foot speed. Drive by brag, but I went from 2:04 Olympic to my life goal that time of going 1:59.
So I thought this program was awesome…and kept training at low intensity till you know what happens next. I just got detrained because I had zero intensity in the program and without doing 25+ hours per week on those ridiculously low heart rates I could not acquire the training load to push myself up a level.
I’d say that periods of putting a lid on the heart rate have a place after large stress loads that have been going on for a long time. But I am not sure it’s the best use of time otherwise.
Most people try to get faster by training hard alll the time… and by training hard they get hurt, they are too sore to actually go hard or they need too much recovery which they don’t take
Me personally, like a Dev, I ran my faster running races with almost no intensity. Just more miles, by running slow. It was miserable at first to see slow paces, but when I wanted to go 400m fast I could do it and that kept me on “planâ€
Since this is your first, you’ll learn a lot about yourself and training - everyone is different
But a good win for you would be to put in the hours every week, stay healthy and have an awesome race. Races 2-3-?? You can optimize training to the Nth degree
But for your first one? Getting to start line healthy is a big win. Many posts I read here are people who went too much, too fast, got hurt and are saying “can I race on 50% of the training I should’ve done†(and they race, finish, etc)
If you read Seiler’s stuff on 80/20 where 20% of your training sessions need to have some intensity in them, then that means that probably < 10% of your overall training duration is actually going to be intervals.
Armed with that bit it shouldn’t be hard to create a pretty solid program
Back in 2007, I had Peter Reid as my coach. He’s a disciple of Mark Allen to some extent and he had me on the Mafatone Method for about 4 months. I PRed both the IM and 70.3 that year (I turned 50 then).
I’m 61 now, and I tend to do this style of training as a matter of course. I like to train. I enjoy it for the most part. I frequently get 250+ mpw on my bike. A lot of it in a comfy Z2. I think I could probably get faster with some HIIT (well more, I do a little bit of it), but I’m not sure I could stay healthy and motivated.
Depends how you define success. Yeah, I’d like to do Kona one last time, but it’s more important for me to workout for 20 hours/week. It’s my lifestyle at this point…
I am a big believer in MAF, but am not a strict disciple.
It keeps you healthy. I have been able to ramp mileage under MAF to 80 mpw. I struggled to run consistently at 35 mpw using a more traditional program. More mileage will make you a better runner.
You can see the progress as your stroke volume increases and your paces come down. I have a 10 mile loop I do fairly regularly and will run it at the top end of my MAF HR range. I watched my times come down from ~1:30:00 to ~1:15:00 over the course of the first 9 months. I can now also run the loop faster at higher heart rates while fatigued than what I used to when well rested. The point is you can get very regular checks on your fitness without having to taper, race and recover. Note the MAF test is outlined on the website, but I have just modified the protocol to a consistent route.
I think the long slow, volume build and time commitment vs injury risk equation favors MAF running. I don’t think it is a good time investment for swimming. I think for IM it is probably okay for biking, but any shorter distances I would say you are better doing more high end work.
I think that it’s pretty good method, especially in keeping the HR down on the ‘easier’ or ‘aerobic’ days. I do think, based on the athletes that I’ve coached, that most age-groupers just generally go too hard. Or the fast isn’t fast enough and the easy isn’t easy enough. The MAF method keeps those lines pretty distinct or at least on the easier end of things. Like Desert Dude says the 80/20 “polarized” model will give you a pretty good mix of training.
I’ve been doing it for the most of the run challenge. I’m 4 years retired from triathlon, so I call it all exercise now and not training. My (180-age)+5 has me at a 141 bpm ceiling. That’s pretty slow running. I go about 165 bpm average for a 5k.
I do think that if you are a lower volume trainer, the gains from following a pretty strict MAF plan will take much longer to realize. Since I’ve been doing the run challenge, my run pace at a give HR has gotten faster. If you aren’t, I would use a strap for the HR measurement. What are you using for the swim?
Realistically, what will your IM marathon run pace be? Realistically? 9:15 gives you what, a 4:05? That isn’t fast, but it also isn’t bad for 26.2 off the bike and after the swim.
I actually think that the cycling should get pretty solid at a MAF heart rate.
The running has been quite a process, it’s required some walking when I peak out (the slightest hill gets the spike). I’ve gotten to the point where I’m now able to run pretty much the whole time at a painfully slow 9:15/mile pace without surpassing my 151 BPM. //
This comes up evertime there is a thread on this training method. How did you come up with this heart rate? Keep in mind that his formula is just a basic guideline for those that do not know what their max rate is, and may have to be adjusted as much as +/- 20%, so it could really be off if you just plugged into that median formula.
The principal works for a lot of athletes, in fact should be the staple for many. But I really wish he could just get rid of that formula all together, and get with the modern age. It is quite easy for a couch, or even an athlete to know which side of the curve they fall on, then we would have all these folks getting all worked up because it is either too hard, or too easy…
Thank you everyone for your input, I really appreciate it.
It’s my first 140.6, but I have done several halfs, olympics, etc… My thinking with MAF was that it would lower injury risk and give me the mileage I thought was needed to get to the start line healthy.
Brandon, my goal isn’t that far from 4:05, I’m targeting about 3:45. The overall goal is sub 11.
Targeting 1:10 swim, 5:45 bike, 3:50 run.
My entire racing ideology for this race is to have enough to be engaged and focused on the run. I believe I can go faster on the bike, but I don’t want to take one ounce away from the run.
So the followup question is that if I’m really being a strict follower of MAF when can I incorporate high intensity stuff? Is my 4 weeks out plan sound? I only came up with that idea based on something an Every Man Jack guy had preached many moons ago on the forum.
Again, thank you to everyone for the input. It’s been a humbling experience running at 9 and 10 minute miles, but I think the payoff will be worth it. I guess the hardest thing to admit was that my aerobic engine was not nearly as strong as I thought. Sure I could do some decent high end stuff, but my overall aerobic strength was pretty weak. Consider me humbled now, I just hope I’m not completely humbled at the finish line of Ironman Texas.
In my tests my max heartrate was pretty much perfectly inline with the classic 220-age. With that being the case, I assumed that the 180-age would be accurate for MAF, is that assumption incorrect?
Maffetone just did a podcast or blog/update, maybe endurance planet, where he outlines the ways to adjust your MAF heart rate. I think that you could probably add 5 beats based on his recommendations.
Without getting too much into the weeds of various thoughts on “periodization” or “specificity” of training…IMTX is about 12 weeks away?
I think that you’d typically be in a pretty specialized phase of training for the next 8-10 weeks depending on your overall plan. I’d pick key sessions and allow yourself to get out of the strict MAF heartrate caps to work on specific pacing for the race. Again, depends on your overall plan. I also think, as mentioned, that using the MAF HR guides is a good thing especially on the easier days and to help keep the intensity down on the days that aren’t key sessions.
The run is the main one that people find difficult. I think that you’ll find, depend on your bike volume, that a MAF heartrate on the bike gives you reasonable power/speed numbers that should be really in line with your IM goals.
I’m curious too because i just don’t understand how MAF can work. I mean isn’t it just based on a formula that’s the same for basically everybody, with small wiggle room? And isn’t HR response very individual, hence why formulas (like 220 minus age to find max) are just as likely to be wrong than right?
So then how can using a formula to find MAF actually be valid. Some people get great results on the program but maybe they are people who just so happen, by chance, to be ones that hte formula fits right for.
In my tests my max heartrate was pretty much perfectly inline with the classic 220-age. With that being the case, I assumed that the 180-age would be accurate for MAF, is that assumption incorrect? //
I dont know, you said you were doing recovery runs and it was in the high 160’s, how old are you, 20?? How did you come around to your own max HR? Like I said, there is a lot that has to be done before embarking on this type of training, #1 thing is actually knowing what your zones actually are…
At it appears from Brandon’s post that there is now some flexibility in setting MAF HR’s, that was long overdue…
I have also used the MAF program.
One of the things that many miss is that past a certain age, you add a few beats to compensate.
In my case I add 10 to the base rate that 180-age would suggest.
But then, I am bloody old.
I’m 29, soon to be 30. I reached my max heart rate assumptions by measuring my heart rate on max efforts on the trainer and all out efforts on the track. I’m sure there’s some variability. Me saying that my recovery runs where in the 160’s was to my surprise, not to my satisfaction. I think the whole experiment has shown me that while I was able to run sub 6 minute miles, my overall aerobic ability was pretty weak. It’s been eye opening. I think my body had like two settings, rest and high end output. The more I’ve measured it was apparent that even the slightest movement would spike my heartrate. So it’s been nice to see that I’m beginning to see the numbers come down. I’m sure there is great variability to the equation, but having some kind of baseline is seeming to help me adapt.