Low or no-drop shoes - worth it?

Triathlon Forum
1

Condensed this to remove the minor points that everyone’s stumbling on, and get to the question (and hopefully some responses to the question posed). Everyone’s on the low/no-drop bandwagon, everyone recognizes that there’s some achilles tendon and calf muscle impact while transitioning, but noone’s talking about the value gained vs. the cost…

Low/no heel-toe drop shoes require the achilles tendon and calf muscle to extend/contract more (length) than high drop shoes.

All of that extra motion comes with a cost - muscle fatigue, and possibly calf muscle cramps and/or achilles tendonitis.

What do you gain for the use of low/no heel-toe drop shoes?

Is it worth the extra muscle and tendon effort?

If you’re a proponent, are you a proponent at any distance, or do you switch to a higher drop shoe at some point? If so, what is that point for you?

2

you can’t get propulsion from gravity unless it is downhill.

less padding does not always result in more impact.

3

If you’re leaning forward of your center of gravity, your weight leverages you forward, no?

4

If you’re leaning forward of your center of gravity, your weight leverages you forward, no?

sure, and you can make about 6 feet of forward progress using gravity that way, per race. depending on your height.

5

I run very low miles compared to 90% of the people on this site and rotate through 5 different shoes, with two of them getting the majority of my miles. Those shoes are in order of most usage to least:

2 pair of Skechers GoRun (4mm drop I believe)
1 pair of Nike Pegasus (13mm drop I believe)
1 pair of Patagonia Tsali’s (10mm I believe)
1 pair of New Balance MT1010’s (4mm I believe)

My lower legs are a little sore after I run in the 1010’s as compare to the GoRun’s with the same drop, but I think the bump in the GoRun’s helps with the foot landing in my ideal spot. The big drop of the Pegasus shoes actually make my heels sore on long runs and I believe that is because the heel is actually getting in the way of my natural foot landing. That is my N=1 experience with rotating through “minimalist” shoes and a neutral shoe. Take that for what it is worth.

6

Can’t comment on your formulas other than to say that it’s all wrong because you’re making assumptions that are incorrect in the first place.

Jack kind of pointed out some of the problem with your thinking.

I will say that proper running mechanics will allow someone to run on a shoe that’s not as built up. I myself prefer to run longer distances in “built up” shoes (typically 8-12mm drop - which for some is not build up at all). I vary my running training with various shoes - however. For example, I just ran 12 miles yesterday in a pair of 0 mm drop Skoras that are about as “low profile” as shoes come.

Like anything else in life, too much of a good thing is bad. And too much of a bad thing is always bad. Things need to be mixed up a bit.

7

A 0 or low drop does doesn’t mean necessarily mean it is minimal. I train in Kinvaras, they have a 4 mm drop, and while I would call them a pretty neutral shoe I don’t find them to be that minimal. I race (and do some speed work) in A5s and I would consider them to be a neutral and minimal shoe.

You can still do a mid or forefoot strike in a 12mm shoe, it just isn’t as easy and I would say causes you to unnaturally point your toe down while running. A lower drop shoe makes it easier to strike further forward on your foot. It does increase the forces on your achilles and calves, but that is the point. They can absorb shock a lot better than a knee or hip joint. If you are using your soft tissue as a shock absorber you don’t need as much cushioning on your shoe. Of course, you need to build up those shock absorbers before laying down major mileage.

As far as muscle fatigue, calf cramps, and achilles tendonitis…that just isn’t something I have had to worry about in training, open run races, or triathlon run races. My quads and hamstrings…a different story.

8

Too much wrong here to even start into it. I have better things to do today.

9

I like to run in high heels…whew, I finally admitted it in public!

Well, maybe not high heels, but 10mm+ at a minimum. I’ve been lucky and have stayed relatively injury free for many years, I am comfortable when I run, it doesn’t matter what benefits some shoe-type will give me…benefit or not, I’m not going to win any races. I might as well just be comfortable and enjoy myself.

10

If you’re leaning forward of your center of gravity, your weight leverages you forward, no?

I believe the correct way to go FASTER is to LEAN BACK, not forward.

11

I see what you did there. But make sure that you SLAM YOUR SEAT FORWARD and POINT IT DOWN ALL THE WAY first.

12

I believe you are thinking about this in the wrong way.
By your logic, if you run flat footed (your foot stays at a 90 degree angle to your shin the entire run), then you would have zero calf/Achilles activation. Thus, you have even better run efficiency since you would not be tiring those muscles at all.
Of course, you do not run like this…why?

Contracting muscles if what generates motion. Tendons absorb a little energy as they stretch and give it back when they relax (spring-like). Sure, if you could make your calf work less every step (as you suggest), you will use less energy every step. But you will also produce LESS POWER every step: less power, less forward momentum. The reasoning behind this is that every muscle has power curve over its full range of contraction. If you only contract the muscle on a small portion of that curve, then every step you are not using energy efficient contractile force.

Of course, without actually measuring where the calf’s powerband is, I cannot say what heel drop shoe encourages the right amount of contraction. It is possible that a 10mm drop shoe prevents your calf from overextending into its inefficient zone. Even if that is the case (and I do not believe it is), there is still the matter that the low drop shoe are usually less mass to move around.

If you’re a proponent, are you a proponent at any distance, or do you switch to a higher drop shoe at some point? If so, what is that point for you?

These are the shoes I wear, approximate %-age of total use, distance range and usage
Brooks PureDrift/PureConnect, 25%, Races up to marathon, speed work
Brooks PureFlow 2, 50%, any distance, anything on road or smooth track
Brooks PureGrit, 15%, trails up to 13 miles (but I ran them on a gravel track marathon last sunday)
Hoka Mafate, 5%, trails over 13 miles
Huarches and Merrell Trail Glove, <5%, <10k smooth road/track for fun or to really focus on form.

Even though the Mafate as a huge sole, it still has a small drop. Once your calf and achilles get used to a drop (except for the last 2, mine are all about 4mm), I do not see why I would wear bigger.

13

I spent 15 years years running in highly supportive shoes with orthotics and never had any injuries. A couple of years ago I spent 6 months transitioning to neutral shies without orthotics. After 2 years of persisting with it I had constant achilles problems. I did the transitioning, did the stretching, alternanted shoes etc, it just didn’t work for me. I’ve gone back to a mid supprt shoe with orthotics, as the last time I strained my achilles it took 5 months to fully recover. I just can’t take that risk again. If I was to try it again I wouldn’t do it, in hindsight it was a big mistake.

14

What do you gain for the use of low/no heel-toe drop shoes? Is it worth the extra muscle and tendon effort? If you’re a proponent, are you a proponent at any distance, or do you switch to a higher drop shoe at some point? If so, what is that point for you?

I am a mid foot / mild heel striker. Weight transfer primarily happens under my hips so not overstriding.
Shoes:
Inov-8 233 Road (6mm - low cushioning)
Inov-8 255 Road (9mm - low cushioning)
Brooks PureFlow (4mm I think / quite cushioned)
Zoots Ultra Kane / Kalani that I no longer wear

I just tried low drop because I kept getting injured and had tried the opposite (stability shoes and orthotics) because that’s what I was told I needed. My physio thought otherwise so I went neutral and felt it helped a bit, I went lower with the 233’s first, which felt way more stable but also the lack of cushion beat my feet up a little (by that I mean they ‘zinged’ a bit after the workout. Not beaten up as in injured or even close) until I got used to them, so I also got the 255’s which seemed a happy medium. I use the PureFlows for long runs for the cushioning.

I did notice that on speed / track on my old Zoots Ultra Kalani / Ultra Kanes (I tried both) that my foot would wobble a bit side on landing, my calves / gastrocs always ached a bit after fast sessions too, probably due to stabilizing. The Zoots were very soft. With the 233’s there is zero wobble and I get a lot more feedback and my calves immediately stopped aching.(I tried the Zoots again, the ache was there the next day so I am assuming they are the cause) The lack of cushion is probably not as necessary over longer / slower distances but feels good for track. The 255’s are a good all rounder for me, not the lowest drop but the reduced cushion still gives me that sold base feel. I sue them for mid distance 10 - 18km or so.

I liked the PureFlows from my first run. I did a 22km trail run in Tucson. Toe box felt nice and roomy. Squishy but sure footed.

I did not notice the drop differences that much in any of the shoes, a bit, but it was not the paradign shift that I thought it might be, although there was a slight stiffness in achilles / calf at first it was not something that ever bothered me and I did not ramp up that slowly. I also did some barefoot at the gym on a treadmill at first. I noticed a huge difference in foot strength. I could only do under 2 minutes at first but after a while I was doing 20 minutes without any issues. Whether that had any bearing on my actual running is, again, open to debate.

Whether my injuries cleared up because of the shoes (doubtful) or, like many the shoes were just the catalyst for a bit of a self gait analysis and change, remains to be seen. I like the differences between the shoes and they work well and feel good for the different reasons I use them.

In summary … I would not buy higher drop shoes again, if only because I like the feel of the lower drop. The fact that I have been uninjured since swapping (barring the odd niggle) might be completely coincidental. My track workouts are better, as in more fun and less calf issues. I don’t know if I am faster in a race because of lower drop shoes, I doubt it. I prefer to run in less cushion but over longer distances my feet prefer a bit more cushion.

I thing I did bring up before and no-one jumped on was … my wife has size 6 feet, I have size 13. My shoes are about twice as long as hers. Does heel to toe drop really count? Or is it heel to toe angle. Because a 4mm drop for her and a 4mm drop for me are completely different drop angles. My angle of drop is almost half of hers, because my shoes are almost twice as long. Food for thought!