First some background.
I have the luxury of having a very good 50m pool only 5 minutes away so the last two years I have been swimming long course exclusively.
I start my season late this year (mainly OD and 1-2 70.3) and right now I just try to build some fitness back up as I am only back in the pool for three weeks after a forced two month break (no fun swimming with broken ribs followed by travel without excess to a pool). At the moment I try to swim around 25k a week and it is starting to feel like propper swimming again. I don’t have a swim background but am working hard on it. I have literally zero fasttwitch talent but can hold very close to top speed at little rest so I think that makes me well suited for triathlon swimming. I am also swimming best when I am really fit can ramp up that turnover
Now last week I was traveling and swam twice is a (also very nice) 25m pool. I have to admit I just loved it.
I did two relatively long sessions (6,2 and 5,5k), going a lot faster than I expected and felt great afterwards (felt better than normal running a few hours later). I checked a few LCM to SCM converters and they only suggest 1,5-2 seconds per 100m but it definitely felt more like ~3 seconds and it was considerably easier to hold threshold pace later into the session. I think the converters use race times so that might explain why I saw a larger difference at around T30 pace.
Now I am wondering if I should maybe switch a few sessions a week to a short course pool? There is a pool not much further away so that wouldn’t be a problem.
I don’t really do real sprint sets as I don’t think that there is a lot of benefits for triathlon swimming but normally do one session a week which consists of a set of 50s (sometimes broken up in 25 easy/25 fast etc.) considerably faster than race pace with longer rest straight into maybe a 200-400 cruise just below threshold. I than might repeat that 3-4 times for a total length of the main set between 2,5 and 3,5k.
Maybe for those session it would be beneficial to do them in the short course pool as I can actually check my times for 25s etc. and it might not trash me just as much while still swimming a touch faster during the fast stuff. I feel like swimming at that speed it more about developing stroke mechanics that “building fitness” anyway so if I can make it easier on the body why not?
I am just curious what the real fast tri swimmers on here think and am always interested in some new inputs and ideas for my swim training.
You’re so lucky to have a long-course pool nearby. Seriously, I go nuts when I can swim long course. Much better simulation for open water swimming. I usually sight halfway through each lap when swimming LC just for practice.
Don’t underestimate sprint sets. They are extremely useful for efficiency and conditioning much like striders and , and high rpm drills. I swam one workout per week with a few of my masters swimmers that I coach using sprint specific sets. I started with 4 sets of 12x25 on 35 seconds and progressed to 2 sets of 30x25 and my speed was much improved from the 25 to the 1650 Yards done in competition. While I have swam for triathlons for over 30 years I come from a running background and am swimming as well now at age 60 as I did at age 40.This is in large part to the sprint specific workouts. In the two races where I did open water I felt remarkably strong despite one of the race being against a steady current for 80% of it.
Both pools have merit and are useful
I agree on the short sets, 25’s certainly have great benefit. Are you sure the SC pools are meters, not yards? I’m in Colorado and almost all SC are yards, only 1 I’m aware of is actually meters where the few LC are 50meters obviously.
You’re so lucky to have a long-course pool nearby. Seriously, I go nuts when I can swim long course. Much better simulation for open water swimming. I usually sight halfway through each lap when swimming LC just for practice.
yeah I guess I am a bit lucky. Also today Nicola Spirig was in the same lane doing her workout so that was kind of cool. Sometimes Sven Riderer is in the pool as well but then there is really no hope keeping up when he turns it on.
The setup is that one lane (Tempo Lane) of eight is for people swimming fast which can be anything from ~2 minutes per 100m down to sometimes 1:10 (when one of the proper swimmers is getting in an extra session) but it works out quite well when avoiding the rush hours and the times when the swimclub has 4 lanes.
I wonder why you think it is a better simulation? I do have quite good flip turns (at least I don’t lose out compared to some ex swimmers I train with) and feel like just holding race pace (or faster) out of the turns with the propper turnover is the best stimulus.
Also there is a perfect lake for OW swimming just a 10 minute bikeride away where I swim around once a week in the summer for some OW skill sessions.
I agree on the short sets, 25’s certainly have great benefit. Are you sure the SC pools are meters, not yards? I’m in Colorado and almost all SC are yards, only 1 I’m aware of is actually meters where the few LC are 50meters obviously.
It was in Germany so yeah pretty sure it is not yards
Step 1. Increase the speed at 35 seconds. I have a few training partners doing them in 12 seconds.
Step 2 : Increase the length of the sets i.e 30x25 on 35
Step 3: Then hold speed and sets and decrease rest in my case 2 sets of 30x25 on 25 . I was then holding a faster pace then I originally held 10 weeks before for 12x25 on the 35.
It’s a progression over 10-12 weeks. There are other ways to do it with 50’s long course as well.
You still all the other work needed but i saw great results with it this past winter.
I was just being silly and I am not dogmatic about it. But I think the number one problem that triathletes have - well actually all swimmers, but triathletes in particular - is stroke rate deterioration. And stroke rate deterioration is both more likely and more pronounced in LCM swimming. Even on the highest level, though perhaps less pronounced. Think about how you feel on a set of 100’s in LCM vs SCM on the last 25.
Personally I try and do both. But sometimes I go weeks without LCM swimming and that is fine. My suggestion to folks swimming in LCM is to be very cognizant of their stroke rate. On any set always try and negative split the repeat. 100’s, 200s whatever. And if you do the first 200 repeat in 3:00 and the 2nd one in 3:12 (something you are much more likely to see in LCM) you really screwed up.
LC is a better simulation for open water. And, because of fewer turns (less gliding) you do swim a little more vs the same distance workout in a SC pool. For those reasons, if a LC pool is available you definitely want to take advantage of it.
But, there are advantages to SC workouts too. As you experienced, you can do 25’s which are GREAT, especially for your average triathletes trying to improve technique. (SC pools make it a bit easier to do 50’s and 100’s too). Speed work makes you stronger and being stronger is probably the single most important thing in improving your technique at all speeds. Also, because of the turns (assuming you have decent turns) SC is faster and, well, going faster is fun.
Finally, if nothing else, you sound fired up about swimming some SC workouts. It is ALWAYS better to be excited about a workout, so take advantage of that.
Even college teams and elite swim clubs that have full time access to LC pools mix it up and swim SC regularly. They are, admittedly, doing it mostly for the extra turn work but it also has the speed benefits noted above even for elite swimmers and it does break things up a bit.
I was just being silly and I am not dogmatic about it. But I think the number one problem that triathletes have - well actually all swimmers, but triathletes in particular - is stroke rate deterioration. And stroke rate deterioration is both more likely and more pronounced in LCM swimming. Even on the highest level, though perhaps less pronounced. Think about how you feel on a set of 100’s in LCM vs SCM on the last 25.
Personally I try and do both. But sometimes I go weeks without LCM swimming and that is fine. My suggestion to folks swimming in LCM is to be very cognizant of their stroke rate. On any set always try and negative split the repeat. 100’s, 200s whatever. And if you do the first 200 repeat in 3:00 and the 2nd one in 3:12 (something you are much more likely to see in LCM) you really screwed up.
I took it no other way, no worries there. =)
I always negative split as well. Gotta work that. Always. For example tomorrow for me is 40 x 50m. Descend by sets of 20 for me. Interval will be a fun one as well to dot that with. Totally agree, then again usually do with your take on swimming.
As for stroke rate, coming off the turn for most triathletes will help them pick back up a higher stroke rate as they start the next length due to the “rest” the turn provided for the arms. Agreed here as well. Helpful? Perhaps. But I would personally rather hold 50m at stroke rate before a turn than 25m. I do believe it is easier to get “lazy” with the rate on LCM over SCM though which is what I think you were referring to when you said to be cognizant. I wonder if it is more pronounced in LCM because the majority of triathletes train in a SCY/SCM pool and that is what their body has adapted to? Swim 7-8-9 stroke cycles then turn (rest for arms).
Me personally, I wouldn’t trade out LCM for SCM unless just wanted a change of scenery. For the reason of “I can go faster in a scm pool” makes no absolutely makes no sense to me.
For example tomorrow for me is 40 x 50m. Descend by sets of 20 for me.
is that a typo? if you want to decend 20 of them the first one has to be proper slow. Or you would need a paceclock with tenth and hundredth of a second and superhuman pacing.
Also I am not asking wether it is ideal to only do LCM or only SCM but as it stands I am doing just LCM and think maybe there are benefits to mixing it up. Due to longer opening hours at the LCM pool I will probably allways to 3-4 sessions there but maybe the other 2 sessions would be better done in a SCM pool.
Today I did a set of 200s with the odd ones being pull+paddles and I could really feel how I got lazy and my stroke rate went down (or rather my arms got too tired to properly move the paddle however you want to put it ). On a set like that I wonder wether it is better to try and fight the fatigue in a LCM pool or rather take the assistance in a SCM pool and maybe do 2 or 3 more.
For example tomorrow for me is 40 x 50m. Descend by sets of 20 for me.
is that a typo? if you want to decend 20 of them the first one has to be proper slow. Or you would need a paceclock with tenth and hundredth of a second and superhuman pacing.
Also I am not asking wether it is ideal to only do LCM or only SCM but as it stands I am doing just LCM and think maybe there are benefits to mixing it up. Due to longer opening hours at the LCM pool I will probably allways to 3-4 sessions there but maybe the other 2 sessions would be better done in a SCM pool.
Today I did a set of 200s with the odd ones being pull+paddles and I could really feel how I got lazy and my stroke rate went down (or rather my arms got too tired to properly move the paddle however you want to put it ). On a set like that I wonder wether it is better to try and fight the fatigue in a LCM pool or rather take the assistance in a SCM pool and maybe do 2 or 3 more.
Descend by sets of 20 means first twenty will be at X and next 20 will be at X minus whatever.
A set we use for the 40x50 is five sets of 8
Set 1: 5th one fast
Set 2: 4 and 8 fast
Set 3: 3 and 6 fast
Set 4: 2.4.6.8 fast
Set 5: all fast.
on what kind of intervall do you do them?
let’s assume someone swims the fast ones around 35-38 seconds and the slow ones 45-48 seconds. than the send off would have to be at least 1:00 I guess just to make round 4&5 but than the first 3 rounds are not that challanging.
A somewhat similar workout (a favourite of a friend of mine) which combines some fast 50s with some 200s just to add some more distance in.
4 rounds of no extra rest between rounds
1st: 2*(easy,easy,easy,fast)
2nd: 2*(easy,easy,fast,fast)
3rd: 2*(easy,fast,fast,fast)
4th: 2*(fast, fast, fast,fast)
I can assure you that the 4th round really hurts.
But sets like this or the one you posted are no sprint sets in my eyes but more conditioning sets at a fairly high pace (I would guess that the fast ones are not much faster than a tapered 400m all out pace during heavy training).
Yes they are as they are done at 100 pace. If you are completing them in times listed than yes 1 minute
My slow ones are in the 40-42 range and the fast ones in 36-38 range on that set. Now again i am sixty years old so my pure speed lacks while my endurance and ability to recover quickly is higher. Its considered a race pace set for 100 yard races. It goes right from one set to the next. It’s a similar set to yours just longer.
Descend by sets of 20 means first twenty will be at X and next 20 will be at X minus whatever.
That is not descending.
That is a change in interval.
Descending is making each repeat faster than the next.
For example
2x4x50 D1>4 on :45/:40
That means two sets of four 50’s descending one to four. First set on 45 interval, second set on 40 interval.
Continuing the example
1st 50 swim at 36
2nd 50 swim at 35
3rd 50 swim at 34
4th 50 swim at 33
repeat on the second set with a faster interval.
We could also make it more complicated than that; but that is what desceding is.
Edit - I misread that. Descending by sets would be as by TriBrad02; though I avoid using that as it gets confused with descending within a set as I outline above.
