https://lsanderstri.com/2016/09/20/the-treadmill-revisited/
He updates his views on treadmill use for running, concluding that it’s likely better to have a component of outdoor running regularly on top of treadmill running (as opposed to 100% treadmill running), based on his results from the last few years. Very interesting stuff.
Would love to hear the ST collective opinions on the subject.
train where you race. as much as possible.
Predictable.
Isn’t this what we all say. My way of training is the best until I try something new and learn otherwise.
With workouts like this…three sub 16 minute 5k’s in a 1 hr period…I don’t think it matters where this guy trains as long as it isn’t on the moon. I also don’t think you can extrapolate his training methodology or his results from his training, to most AG athletes. It sure is fun as hell to watch.
“Mar 10th: 5k w/u to 3x5k w/5mR (15:51, 15:34, 15:24) to 6k c/d.”
Duh. Training on a treadmill all the time reinforces bad habits. You can get away with floating over the moving track, stop by any gym and you will see the high bounders.
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Or is it that people who run at the gym most of the time are not runners in the sense you are meaning it.
Here is an article quoting Dr. Ferber who is, in my opinion, a pretty darn good source for all things biomechanical related.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/myth-debunked-treadmill-good-road-running/story?id=29050477
For the record I would rather stop running than do ALL my running on the treadmill. I do a couple of times a week during the summer and winter. 4-6 miles a pop is plenty for me. I don’t compute how people can do 20+ miles at a time.
Tire selection doesn’t really matter for your average triathlete either as a couple minutes here or there isn’t a big deal. We aren’t talking about an average runner though. At 5-6 min miles the differences are enough that you shouldn’t be doing 100% of your training on a treadmill.
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Duh. Training on a treadmill all the time reinforces bad habits. You can get away with floating over the moving track, stop by any gym and you will see the high bounders.
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I haven’t found this at all. Running on a treadmill enforces good habits. If you’re keeping the pace honest (and hard), you maintain good turnover, don’t slow down with accumulated fatigue, and learn what steady pacing feels like even on very hard efforts. Plus, you can do ‘neverending’ hill climbs.
The one area where treadmills definitely have been lacking for me is downhill running outdoors. I definitely notice that my downhilling ability isn’t as good as the other guys if I’m doing my typical 1-3% incline training on the treadmill. But I seem to make up for that by beingn better hill climbers than than, likely because the TM is so good with hill simulation. (I crank it up to 10%+ on hill repeats.)
I love speedwork on the treadmill, especially tempo runs. Nothing like dialing in tiny incremental improvements of 3-5sec/mile over time, which gradually aggregate to faster improvement.
At your next 5k, watch the field and pick out the 3 worst bounders (have the most up and down hip motion in their stride). When they finish ask them how much they run on a treadmill.
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my opinion is the young man has worlds of talent but needs to associate himself with the right coach/guide. He is wasting years “learning” things that have already been learned many times.
Dare I say he needs someone like Paulo who will tell him to just shut up and do the work (which he is obviously quite capable of doing) in the manner it is prescribed.
Training in a group would also likely help him as well.
I hope he figures this out sooner than later.
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I’ve never raced anyone on the treadmill next to me. And I’ve run on a lot of treadmills!
I’ve done a lot of running on treadmills over the winter before. I choose not to these days unless it isn’t smart to run outside - ie the roads are icy or snowy - or the conditions are simply miserable enough to warrant being inside. I typically still choose outdoors over indoors even when the temps are down near 0 F with windchill.
Performance wise, the treadmill has its place in my training. Hill reps with no downhill portion (which is where I tend to get injured), tempo runs where you dial in a pace and keep at it for X amount of time, very easy runs with no pounding, fast reps at a goal pace to practice turning over the legs. That said, when possible, I’m outside.
One note is that when I run more on treadmills, I’m sure to pay extra attention to doing work outside of running to strengthen the muscles that treadmill running ignores - hips/glutes, etc. If I don’t, I get hurt. Simple physical therapy type work keeps me going when I have to use the treadmill a lot.
I’ve run my fastest when I run 90-100% outside.
At your next 5k, watch the field and pick out the 3 worst bounders (have the most up and down hip motion in their stride). When they finish ask them how much they run on a treadmill.
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I dunno - I’ve done over 70% of my running for this entire year on a treadmill, and there’s no big bounding going on. I’m running the fastest I ever have for triathlon, with the lowest mileage I ever have (I can go pretty hard on the TM with less injury risk.)
Things are going so well TM runningwise that I will likely shoot for the BQ next spring/summer (I used to be marathon runner, but never ran a ‘fast’ marathon to BQ at. Came close at the SF marathon, but that’s not a BQ-friendly course and missed by minutes.)
I probably do 75% of my running on the treadmill. Reason being:
I do run outside once or twice a week. Mainly on the weekends with my long run or brick run. My long runs are done on a trail where it’s easier on the body… unfortunately, I can’t get to said trail during the week.
At your next 5k, watch the field and pick out the 3 worst bounders (have the most up and down hip motion in their stride). When they finish ask them how much they run on a treadmill.
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I dunno - I’ve done over 70% of my running for this entire year on a treadmill, and there’s no big bounding going on. I’m running the fastest I ever have for triathlon, with the lowest mileage I ever have (I can go pretty hard on the TM with less injury risk.)
Things are going so well TM runningwise that I will likely shoot for the BQ next spring/summer (I used to be marathon runner, but never ran a ‘fast’ marathon to BQ at. Came close at the SF marathon, but that’s not a BQ-friendly course and missed by minutes.)
That is a nice snowflake story. 
Note, you are running outside way more than Sanders. There is nothing wrong with running on a treadmill. You are losing something if you are doing 100% of your runs on a treadmill though. Especially if you are trying to be world champion at an event that requires running.
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At your next 5k, watch the field and pick out the 3 worst bounders (have the most up and down hip motion in their stride). When they finish ask them how much they run on a treadmill.
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I dunno - I’ve done over 70% of my running for this entire year on a treadmill, and there’s no big bounding going on. I’m running the fastest I ever have for triathlon, with the lowest mileage I ever have (I can go pretty hard on the TM with less injury risk.)
Things are going so well TM runningwise that I will likely shoot for the BQ next spring/summer (I used to be marathon runner, but never ran a ‘fast’ marathon to BQ at. Came close at the SF marathon, but that’s not a BQ-friendly course and missed by minutes.)
That is a nice snowflake story.
Note, you are running outside way more than Sanders. There is nothing wrong with running on a treadmill. You are losing something if you are doing 100% of your runs on a treadmill though. Especially if you are trying to be world champion at an event that requires running.
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The one thing he mentions that is seriously worth consideration is the reduced risk of injury on a treadmill.
For me, when I was running high-mileage as a pure marathoner (all outdoor), I was constantly on the brink of a season-ending injury, like a stress fracture or a tendon injury. Even now, the main thing that will likely destruct my good forward motion (even at age 40+!) of running is an unexpected injury.
This is the first year that I’ve really gravitated toward bulk treadmill training, and in retrospect I do think it’s responsible for keeping me injury free despite the continued progress. It’s partly the reduced impact, but I think that might actually not be as critical as the ability to make incremental tiny progress on a treadmill, reliably.
I’ve cut 20sec/mile off a near-plateaued 40 minute tempo effort, dropping from 6:24/mi to 6:04/mi in the past 4 months by inching that speed up on notch every few weeks. I def wouldn’t be able to control the granularity of that gain outdoors, and in additoin, I know from history that when I’m running those low-6 miles for tempo runs, I’m always at a big risk for a strain, esp if I have a ‘good day’ and overdo it accidentally.
The TM has been great for keeping me in check - no injuries for me despite running my fastest TM paces yet. I really do think that incremental tiny gain is a big contributor to that.
The only time I have it was actually a race. Indoor tri. It was pretty intense actually.
I’ve cut 20sec/mile off a near-plateaued 40 minute tempo effort, dropping from 6:24/mi to 6:04/mi in the past 4 months by inching that speed up on notch every few weeks. I def wouldn’t be able to control the granularity of that gain outdoors, and in additoin, I know from history that when I’m running those low-6 miles for tempo runs, I’m always at a big risk for a strain, esp if I have a ‘good day’ and overdo it accidentally.
The TM has been great for keeping me in check - no injuries for me despite running my fastest TM paces yet. I really do think that incremental tiny gain is a big contributor to that.
I have started incorporating more TM for the same reasons. However, I am curious whether you have re-tested the tempo run outside. For me (similar paces), outdoor tempo pace is about 20 seconds slower than TM tempo for the same HR and PE. The physiological cost of having to push off rather than just swing my legs?
Duh. ** Training on a treadmill all the time reinforces bad habits**. You can get away with floating over the moving track, stop by any gym and you will see the high bounders.
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I hate treadmills and do not use them. However, Chris Clark (F) won the women’s Olympic trials marathon in 2000 training exclusively on a treadmill through the winter in Alaska. You wouldn’t mind a bad habit like that.
“Clark, who was the 22nd seed entering the U.S. Olympic Trials in Columbia, S.C., in February, won the race and caused a brief media frenzy when people found out her training method – running on a treadmill because of Anchorage’s icy winter streets.”