The link is a free article printed by the Washington Post and is excerpted from a book to be published in May.
It is too long to read? Find the time.
Trump’s Christian MAGA movement = end of the American experiment.
From the article: “Expressing a belief in God is no threat to the Founders’ system, but reshaping society in accord with Christian teachings is.â€
Trump’s Christian MAGA movement = end of the American experiment.
From the article: “Expressing a belief in God is no threat to the Founders’ system, but reshaping society in accord with Christian teachings is.â€
Maybe. My take is this statement could be hard to defend. Say we were talking of Pence as the President and not Trump, how would Kagan have attacked the Christian movement as led by Pence as antithetical to the Bill of Rights and the freedoms for all within the Founders system. Put differently, how would this argument of system overthrow play out were there no Jan 6 election coup?
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
Those are great examples that prove the text you are quoting, I assume that is your point.
“in god we trust” was not added to dollars till 1955.
“under god” was to added to the pledge in 1954.
Those are obvious examples of “Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.”
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
Those are great examples that prove the text you are quoting, I assume that is your point.
“in god we trust” was not added to dollars till 1955.
“under god” was to added to the pledge in 1954.
Those are obvious examples of “Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.”
Yeah. I was giving the “God as the right hand man next to our Pres” folks an opportunity to chime in. But how does this culture war play out with the Christians were it Pence playing the God figure without any election fraud bolstering the lets get Biblical in insurrection and regime change. How much does the cult of Trump play? Is Kagan making the case that our liberal democracy is out there to be stolen with Pence leading the way?
The link is a free article printed by the Washington Post and is excerpted from a book to be published in May.
It is too long to read? Find the time.
Excellent but foreboding piece, thank you. I do agree that this is a critical read for all americans that value freedom. But, unfortunately, the people that need to see this the most will be the ones that will never read it.
That said, l am surprised that you posted this. Do you yourself accept and believe the theme(s) presented in the piece?
I share the author’s sentiment wholly.
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
Those are great examples that prove the text you are quoting, I assume that is your point.
“in god we trust” was not added to dollars till 1955.
“under god” was to added to the pledge in 1954.
Those are obvious examples of “Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.”
Yeah. I was giving the “God as the right hand man next to our Pres” folks an opportunity to chime in. But how does this culture war play out with the Christians were it Pence playing the God figure without any election fraud bolstering the lets get Biblical in insurrection and regime change. How much does the cult of Trump play? Is Kagan making the case that our liberal democracy is out there to be stolen with Pence leading the way?
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?
Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?
Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.
Yeah, I had that exact thought. They think they have it bad now because someone might ask them to use different pronouns than their sex, just wait to the religious zealots get their way.
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.Yeah, I had that exact thought. They think they have it bad now because someone might ask them to use different pronouns than their sex, just wait to the religious zealots get their way.
You know, there was an excellent book and TV series exactly about this eventuality. The author was remarkable in her ability to see where this is all heading, and it’s not a good place:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81PyH5TH-NQ
(it probably could have also been called ‘Be Careful What You Wish For’ … )
Trump’s Christian MAGA movement = end of the American experiment.
From the article: “Expressing a belief in God is no threat to the Founders’ system, but reshaping society in accord with Christian teachings is.â€
Maybe. My take is this statement could be hard to defend. Say we were talking of Pence as the President and not Trump, how would Kagan have attacked the Christian movement as led by Pence as antithetical to the Bill of Rights and the freedoms for all within the Founders system. Put differently, how would this argument of system overthrow play out were there no Jan 6 election coup?
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That is from the declaration of independence.
Endowed by their Creator. It seems the founders felt that all human beings were granted certain rights by their Creator. In this case I think they were thinking of a Christian God. The idea that people have certain rights and are not subject to the capricious wishes of kings goes back to the Jews. Thinkers like John Locke who advanced the whole idea of liberal democracy felt the same way. It isn’t antithetical to representative gov’t etc. And many of these thinkers also thought that liberal democracy was unlikely to survive without some source of morality motivate the population to live in ways that allowed it.
I am not saying that it is a good idea for the church to rule society as a whole. Separating church and state is a good idea. For both churches and society at large.
And many of these thinkers also thought that liberal democracy was unlikely to survive without some source of morality motivate the population to live in ways that allowed it…
Do you believe that there must be a god, or gods, for there to be human morality?
Let’s dig a bit further.
Posed that the threat to liberal democracy is marked by “decline in public virtue”
Posed that our love of liberty gives way when we pursue : "narrow selfish interest"
That the founders saw love of liberty: “not just for themselves” but rather as “an abstract ideal for all humans”
His core argument:
ceding the ground away from our system with the foundation of liberal democracy to those, led by Trump, who want regime change. This “regime†they are referring to is the unique political system established by the Founders based on the principles of universal equality and natural rights. That, plain and simple, is what this election is about."
And that A healthy republic would not be debating whether Trump and his followers seek the overthrow of the Founders’ system of liberal democracy.
A Republic if we can keep it.
The institution of slavery as opposed to the ultimate human freedom and the Christian Church as
opposed to the freedom of conscience marked our first battles to keep our Republic.
Any here care to debate liberal democracy vs the church and it’s denial of our freedom of conscience? This is what Kagan wrote:
The Founders knew these ideas were radical, that they were inaugurating, in their own words, a novus ordo seclorum — a new order of the ages — that required a new way of thinking and acting. They knew, as well, that their own practices and those of 18th-century American society did not conform to their new revolutionary doctrines. They knew that slavery was contrary to the Declaration’s principles, though they permitted slavery to continue, hoping it would die a natural death. They knew that established churches were contrary to those principles because they impinged on that most important of rights, “freedom of conscience,†which was vital to the preservation of liberty, yet a number of states in the 18th and 19th centuries retained all kinds of religious tests for office. In short, they knew that a great many Americans did not in fact believe in the liberal principles of the Revolution. As Benjamin Rush, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, put it, “We have changed our forms of government, but it remains yet to effect a revolution in our principles, opinions and manners so as to accommodate them to the forms of government we have adopted.†They did not insist that citizens believe in those principles. One could be an American citizen whether one believed in the Declaration or not.
The core right of all to own a Human Conscience. Who influences and to what extent? Do we heed The words of Philosophers? Or, the words of God and his prophets? Or is it the laws and rules of governments and it’s leaders? How does our liberal democracy deal with the separation of church and state?
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?
I think Kagan called the group as “the white hot core” of Trump’s followers. He did not note whether pun was intended.
So, why will so many vote for him anyway? For a significant segment of the Republican electorate, the white-hot core of the Trump movement, it is because they want to see the system overthrown. This should not come as a shock, for it is not a new phenomenon. On the contrary, it is as old as the republic. Historians have written about the “liberal tradition†in America, but there has from the beginning also been an anti-liberal tradition: large numbers of Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights. The Founders based the republic on a radical set of principles and assertions about government: that all human beings were created equal in their possession of certain “natural rights†that government was bound to respect and to safeguard. These rights did not derive from religious belief but were “self-evident.†They were not granted by the Christian God, by the crown or even by the Constitution. They were inherent in what it meant to be human
“In God we Trust” and “under God” and hands on Bibles for oath takings are a thing too.
Those are great examples that prove the text you are quoting, I assume that is your point.
“in god we trust” was not added to dollars till 1955.
“under god” was to added to the pledge in 1954.
Those are obvious examples of “Americans determined to preserve preliberal traditions, hierarchies and beliefs against the secular liberal principles of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights.”
Yeah. I was giving the “God as the right hand man next to our Pres” folks an opportunity to chime in. But how does this culture war play out with the Christians were it Pence playing the God figure without any election fraud bolstering the lets get Biblical in insurrection and regime change. How much does the cult of Trump play? Is Kagan making the case that our liberal democracy is out there to be stolen with Pence leading the way?
I think the argument is that Jan 6th was just the most extreme example, which crossed some sort of line for pence that others did not.
Pence was not, at least vocally, opposed to other similar actions, like this:
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.Yeah, I had that exact thought. They think they have it bad now because someone might ask them to use different pronouns than their sex, just wait to the religious zealots get their way.
You know, there was an excellent book and TV series exactly about this eventuality. The author was remarkable in her ability to see where this is all heading, and it’s not a good place:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81PyH5TH-NQ
(it probably could have also been called ‘Be Careful What You Wish For’ … )
It’s hard to see a Handmaid’s Tale type of scenario ever evolving. That sort of right wing Christianity is so rare, even what we consider right wing Christianity has been so tempered with post-Enlightment humanism that it’s still a fairly decent belief system and ain’t going back to the 17th century.
Now if only we could figure out how to bring about an Enlightenment in the Islamic world we might make some real progress.
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.Yeah, I had that exact thought. They think they have it bad now because someone might ask them to use different pronouns than their sex, just wait to the religious zealots get their way.You know, there was an excellent book and TV series exactly about this eventuality. The author was remarkable in her ability to see where this is all heading, and it’s not a good place:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81PyH5TH-NQ
(it probably could have also been called ‘Be Careful What You Wish For’ … )It’s hard to see a Handmaid’s Tale type of scenario ever evolving. That sort of right wing Christianity is so rare, even what we consider right wing Christianity has been so tempered with post-Enlightment humanism that it’s still a fairly decent belief system and ain’t going back to the 17th century.
Now if only we could figure out how to bring about an Enlightenment in the Islamic world we might make some real progress.
You certainly can have your view, but I think your confidence is not warranted based on recent developments in this country.
What percentage of MAGA/Trump supporters are Christian zealots vs. just good ol’ rednecks, who are freedom loving, antiwoke types? And how are the latter going to respond when they realize the Christians want to take away their porn, pot and beer?Well the christians already took away their right to abortion in may states and that hasn’t seemed to slow them much, some but not much. Perhaps this coming elect will tell a different story.Yeah, I had that exact thought. They think they have it bad now because someone might ask them to use different pronouns than their sex, just wait to the religious zealots get their way.You know, there was an excellent book and TV series exactly about this eventuality. The author was remarkable in her ability to see where this is all heading, and it’s not a good place:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81PyH5TH-NQ
(it probably could have also been called ‘Be Careful What You Wish For’ … )It’s hard to see a Handmaid’s Tale type of scenario ever evolving. That sort of right wing Christianity is so rare, even what we consider right wing Christianity has been so tempered with post-Enlightment humanism that it’s still a fairly decent belief system and ain’t going back to the 17th century.
Now if only we could figure out how to bring about an Enlightenment in the Islamic world we might make some real progress.
You certainly can have your view, but I think your confidence is not warranted based on recent developments in this country.
Because they’ve been able to get abortion outlawed in a few states, you think we’re about to have public hangings of gay people, stoning of aldulters, etc.? Or maybe it’s the banning of drag queen story time for kids that has you so pessimistic?
Again, even the Christian right is so infused with humanism that they don’t know how far they’re removed from that good ol’ time religion.