So, I know everyone on here advocates a level saddle. I find however on my P3 that if i tilt the nose down I can take pressure off of the tip of the saddle, and I become more comfortable and more powerful. Anyone try this, or have any suggestions?
My experience has been a little nose down is ok (no more than 5-10 degrees), but go too far and you are going to have to press back into the saddle to keep from sliding forward and off it-- which will cause significant other problems! Also, make sure you try out what ever adjustments you make on some hill climbs as well- the taller rear end may cause problems there too…
that’s because you’re on a saddle that’s not comfortable.
back in the late 80s, when i was a bike manufacturer, i started spec’ing my complete bikes with “no pedals.” i don’t remember if i was the first to do this, but if i wasn’t the first, i can’t imagine who was doing that before i was. in any case, it was a decision i made independent of any other bike company, and i made this decision because i thought it was silly to put a clip and strap pedal on a bike that everyone knew damned good and well was going to get taken off and thrown into the garbage can.
it is now time to go the same route with saddles (at least on tri bikes). just spec the bike with no saddle. if i was cervelo, felt, QR, et al, that’s how i would spec my complete bikes: no pedals, no saddle.
for those of you who’re contemplating a bike purchase, whether scott, felt, cervelo, qr, kuota, trek, specialized, fuji, kestrel, cannondale, or any other company: if you buy the bike with the OE saddle, you’ve missed a big opportunity. if you wheel your new bike out the door without a saddle, and aerobars, that are EXACTLY what you want to ride, you’ve pissed away the ability to leverage the dollars of a complete bike sale against getting the complete bike that you want, top to bottom, front to back.
saddles are way too individual to leave to OE spec. you need to know that the saddle on your bike is the right saddle, and it would be freak luck if the saddle that was spec’d on the bike you bought was in fact your perfect saddle.
Dan, Thanks for this. I’m currently riding the OE saddle, the Arione Tri2. Any ideas for something that would be better? I realize saddle choice is solely personal preference, but based on what I’ve done to make the current saddle more comfortable maybe you have a suggestion.
Thanks.
David
oh, and just so you know a little bit about me, i’m 5’8", ~140, and 24 yrs old.
In my experience, the Arione Tri 2 saddle works for a lot of people.
When it doesn’t work, I tend to suggest the ISM Adamo Racing.
Fair enough, Dan, but how do you learn what saddle and aerobar you want without making a gazillion purchases? None of my LBSs have much of this on hand and I don’t see many people without OEM saddles. I do see people changing aerobars seemingly weekly…
my OE (OEM?) saddle that came with my bike had too much of a dip - after getting a hand-me-down that was basically flat, and is also slightly nose down while sitting flat (an older orange eddie merckx) i got a LOT more comfortable than the fizik that was on there.
the nose down helped me a bunch, because i have bolt on tri bars on my laid back serotta fierte. and while initially i felt i needed to push back a bit more from my elbows, the relief in the crotch was a bigger net win for comfort.
the other huge advantage of the seat is spotting it in transition 
“how do you learn what saddle and aerobar you want without making a gazillion purchases? None of my LBSs have much of this on hand”
what you do is stroll into your LBS, and get the owner/manager to sit down and view this thread, and this post. what he needs in stock are:
fizik arione tri 2
selle italia slr t1
profile design tristryke
john cobb vflow+
ism adamo
he needs these saddles in stock. my guess is he has many MORE styles of pedals, shoes, helmets, so, really, if he does NOT have these important models of the single MOST important component on a triathlete’s bike, why not? i’m sure the reason he doesn’t have these saddles in stock is simply that he did not know that these are the most important tri saddles to have.
so, WHEN he gets these saddles in his shop, the way you determine which is right for you is to bring your bike into the shop, put one after another saddle on your bike, until you find happiness. that whole process will take 15 or 20 minutes, and you’ll have your new saddle.
Thanks, I believe they have most (if not all) of those in stock, along with many others. I guess I’ll stop by there this afternoon and have them set me up on the trainer to see what is best.
Rock on. I’ll give this a shot. John Cobb is visiting my neck of the woods right now and I might go meet up with him, too.
A key question is this - do you ride up on the nose as is optimal on a tri bike? I’m guessing not. If you do, then the angle makes little difference since the weight is up front anyways. This gets to Dan’s point you likely have the wrong saddle - the right one lets you ride forward.
If you ride back on the saddle, like many triathletes do, slightly nose down might help. ~60% of my road & MTB fit clients are happiest with a saddle that is just a few degrees nose down, which makes sense given that they sit further back on the saddle, but still need to get their hips rolled forward.
Certainly if you get a comfort/power benefit from nosing it down slightly, AND you can stay comfortably planted on the saddle, AND you have good range of leg motion, that trumps rules of thumb (mine or anyone else’s) about how to place the saddle.
As far as selecting the right saddle, I’ll put in a shameless commercial plug for our saddle demos at SVCC:
http://www.svcyclingcenter.com/services/saddles.php
“then the angle makes little difference since the weight is up front anyways.”
i’m not sure if i understand your right, but the angle of the saddle makes a lot of difference, because if you are riding nose-down, then with every pedal stroke you’re both propelling the bike forward and hoisting yourself or bracing yourself against sliding forward (and down). besides being inefficient, it’s a recipe for patellar tendonitis.
“If you ride back on the saddle, like many triathletes do”
if you’re riding back on the saddle, then you don’t need a tri saddle or, for that matter, a tri bike. otherwise, if you’re riding back on the saddle, why? too many fitters just assume that’s where the athlete wants to ride, when in fact that’s where the athlete has to ride if the saddle he’s on is the saddle he’s “saddled” with.
How do you figure out what’s level? Most of the saddles that I’ve tried are not flat so does the level go down the center or from one corner to the nose? Some saddles have a dip in the center so who knows? Do you put something flat on top of the saddle and then put the level on that? I’ve made my way through every saddle on your list and the Vflow + seems to be the winner; however, I just recently added the Specialized TriTip to the mix to see if it is any better.
“How do you figure out what’s level”
some saddles (arione tri 2) are just level, front to back. others (ISM adamo) are not, so, just make sure the part you’re sitting on (almost always the nose) is level.
IIRC, I remember reading that Rappstar runs his Arione Tri-2 with about a 6 or 7 degree tilt down to the front. The reason was to end up with a level nose because of the way this saddle flexes when you put your weight on it. Just curious because I have a Tri-2 and I found my “sweet spot” to be about 2 degrees tilt, and you have me wondering if this is the correct saddle for me if it should be level.
Hi Dan
I was probably a little hasty, I’ll clarify/quantify. I think we’re in violent agreement that if you’re properly riding a tri bike, which is properly fit and has the right saddle, you’ll ride forward on the saddle and level saddle is best.
As a mostly academic exercise, take that bike/rider setup as a starting point, and nose the saddle down 2 degrees - I’d assert that the component of gravity pulling you forward on the saddle is small compared to the friction that wants to keep you in place, and the rearward reaction force from the pedals. At least, this has been my experience. Same would hold true for 2 deg up.
Many of the “nose down” saddles I see are really at 5-6 deg, or more, where I agree you’ll likely fight gravity to stay put. So I guess we’re debating the tolerance on “level”, and I think it’s +/- 2 degrees.
For roadies & MTB’ers, who do properly ride back on the saddle most of the time, it’s not academic. Two degrees up or down can make a big difference in comfort & power.
Cheers,
Karl
hey there, it seems like everyone here like the nose down, i however walk a different path, i am currently riding tri arione 2 and have a road version just recently and prefer the tip slightly up.
my reasoning for myself, it feels more powerful, easier to climb hills in the big gear, more comfortable as well…the tip slightly up prevents my body from rolling forward and losing power output (interesting i kno), as well as forcing me on my sitbones which MAY feel better
other info, im riding a jamis trilogy, 76 degree seat tube angle, with my tri arione 2 shoved far forward. the tilt is very slight.
i recommend experimenting the nose up, but i recommend again that you use a tri saddle with a nose with some cushioning.
i hope this helps, this has worked for me.
I am relatively new to triathlon. Just a couple of brief seasons. The learning curve about the saddles was very steep so was the knowledge curve about fit which I aquired here reading the fit articles.
I have gone trough all the saddles on the above list except V-flow. I have come to prefer a slight nose down angle of 1.7 degress to be exact. I set a digital level over the area where I seem to be most of the time on the saddle and that is where I take the measurement. I have had the same angle down on SLR T1 as I do now on Specialized Tri Tip SL, 50mm. On this saddle, my angle of 1.7 degrees across the saddle length, yields the nose of the saddle being nearly flat, just 0.5 degrees down. Anything more down, I begin finding myself more forward sliding, anything less than that puts additional pressure in perenium area for me.
I am strictly a nose rider. That is where I am 100% of the time, even on 80-85mi rides. I also have an aerobar drop of 13.8cm. I can not imagine myself having a flat saddle and being able to rotate my pelvis anymore forward. As a matter of fact, I can’t imagine anyone sitting on his taint like I do and rotate pelvis forward and not have a nose down saddle, in the range of 0-3 degrees with any kind of signifficant drop.
What do I know. This just my 2 cents. I don’t see an agressive low frontal position with a flat saddle that has any kind of nose on it. Excluding Adamo Race here. I could not stand it, but many swear by it.
Is it possible to create a Saddle Table??? Not sure if this would make sense or not, but would some type of chart indicating the saddles, rail length, overall length, etc. along with seat heights, seat angle, etc. make any sense given how important saddles are? Or, is there just too many variables?
As you stated, I think the biggest issue with saddles is that the majority don’t know how or when the saddles are setup properly, so perhaps if there was some type of guide on “How To” or a “Table for Dummies” that may be a start?
After trying the Fizik Arione Tri 2, Selle Italia SLR T1 I finally gave the ISM Adamo Racing Saddle a try and love it! The Arione was too soft for me and the SLR T1 was “okay”, but the Adamo is just right!!!
I’m interested to see what John Cobb’s new saddles are going to look like…