This week in an interview with L’Equipe, Greg Lemond said:
“When I raced, I had a VO2 max of 93, and I never developed more than 400 watts. Armstrong’s VO2 max, which Ed Coyle mistakenly revealed, was no more than 78. So, considering his weight - 73 kg, he could never produce 500 watts to ride up the Madonna as he said, or 475 watts on the climb of L’Alpe-d’Huez. With his VO2 max, he couldn’t exceed 375 watts. To increase his performance by 30%, he had to dope. But did he achieve his performance only with doping? What doping did he use that others didn’t? All I know is that there are 50-70 watts missing, which we don’t know the origin of. There is something that I still do not understand.â€
I’ve never heard of a direct correlation between vo2 max and power at or around threshold. Is Lemond way off base here, or is there an actual documented correlation?
I mean, I know of quite a few guys who push 400+ watts (and with Strava, it’s pretty easy to see what some top pros are doing to more or less verify that), but a vo2 max of 93 seems like rare territory indeed.
The minimal VO2max required to be able to sustain 400 W will depend on your maximal metabolic steady state (“threshold”) relative to your VO2max as well as your cycling economy (efficiency). Lemond is therefore off-base by stating that it is impossible for someone with a VO2max of “only” 5.7 L/min (I.e., 78 X 73 divided by 1000) to be able to sustain 400 W.
Note that Armstrong’s VO2max was reported to be closer to 6 L/min in an article published in Scientific American in 1996, which would make 400 W even more achievable.
Of course, none of this addresses the extent to which Armstrong’s performance was enhanced by doping, but clearly he would not have needed a motor as Lemond attempts to imply.
I’m not much for Lemond’s rhetoric or tone. It’s sloppy, sophomoric, and overall petty. But I have no problem with raising questions, deeper analyses, etc. He’s got data and analysis he’s sharing. Is it newsworthy? IDK, probably not. But he’s not saying you shouldn’t question him, as you allege.
He’s bookended at the TdF for decades by men who are known, documented, and admitted dopers. I, too, find that odd that nothing about Lemond has really ever surfaced. But I haven’t heard from credible sources who have evidence that he was a cheat. -J
To infer that Armstrong was using a motor, without any direct evidence is just wacko.
I think it’s a crazy assumption but do you see the irony in your post?
For years people said he and everyone else who suggested Lance was on drugs was just wacko and it turns out that the wackos were the ones who actually believed Lance. There was never direct evidence he took drugs until he finally admitted it.
To infer that Armstrong was using a motor, without any direct evidence is just wacko.
I think it’s a crazy assumption but do you see the irony in your post?
For years people said he and everyone else who suggested Lance was on drugs was just wacko and it turns out that the wackos were the ones who actually believed Lance. There was never direct evidence he took drugs until he finally admitted it.
No, that is not irony. There is no evidence he was using a motor. Lemond is using bad data and making bad assumptions with it to infer something that there is no evidence for.
To infer that Armstrong was using a motor, without any direct evidence is just wacko.
I think it’s a crazy assumption but do you see the irony in your post?
For years people said he and everyone else who suggested Lance was on drugs was just wacko and it turns out that the wackos were the ones who actually believed Lance. There was never direct evidence he took drugs until he finally admitted it.
No, that is not irony. There is no evidence he was using a motor. Lemond is using bad data and making bad assumptions with it to infer something that there is no evidence for.
Further more battery technology improved so much between 1999 and 2010 (the first time talk of mechanical doping took hold), it’s hard to imagine mechanical doping offered much benefit during the first his tour run.
maybe he’s suggesting that their was one of those “silent motors”, being used in addition to doping, or maybe he isn’t. However, it makes sense to me that if 50 or so watts was “missing”, a motor might have been where they came from…this is a stretch, I know.
edit. should have read previous posts before posting
Lemond has an ax to grind with Lance… and IMO with good reason. Lance essentially destroyed him and his fledgling Lemond brand. I think Greg is a good guy with a serious physical gift… where MAYBE he was able to compete at a high level because of his freakish VO2. I could be wrong though, he could be a doper too WITH a freakish VO2.
I have a friend that was run out of cycling because of not wanting to dope and being a whistle blower… I think he told me Lemond was clean as far as he knew.
That said Greg is over thinking this one… Lance doped as did many others… that’s how he exceeded his capabilities. Cycling is still a dirty sport IMO at the pro level for the majority of riders.
And yet they are still breaking records after cycling has been cleaned up.
I doubt they’re breaking climbing records from the doping era. ~7+w/kg for 45-60 minutes is now considered blatant doping and plenty were putting up those numbers back then (and just overstating weight not to rouse suspicion.) You just don’t see pros putting up ~500w for close to an hour anymore. Froome is doing a bit over 6w/kg for an hour on some climbs which is not considered high enough to be obvious cheating.
“Lance essentially destroyed him and his fledgling Lemond brand”
Greg destroyed it himself - publically naysaying the current star athlete from the same sponsor is never a good look - the company probably dropped him based on his detrimental lack of professionalism in the press - most contracts have a clause about it
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To infer that Armstrong was using a motor, without any direct evidence is just wacko.
I think it’s a crazy assumption but do you see the irony in your post?
For years people said he and everyone else who suggested Lance was on drugs was just wacko and it turns out that the wackos were the ones who actually believed Lance. There was never direct evidence he took drugs until he finally admitted it.
I do. But a stopped clock is right twice a day. There was plenty of evidence of drugs in the Peloton when Lemond made his claims. Many wanted to believe the fairytale, including me. There’s no evidence of motors 10 years ago. Given the focus on weight (wrongly) at the time, and the lack of a reason for a battery, it’s more than a stretch to me. When LeMond is making statements based on science (that a real scientist debunks), well it just feels like piling on at this point.
I’m interested in what LeMond has to say, I just wish he’d stick to what he really knows. His knowledge of tactics would be great to hear.
“Lance essentially destroyed him and his fledgling Lemond brand”
Greg destroyed it himself - publically naysaying the current star athlete from the same sponsor is never a good look - the company probably dropped him based on his detrimental lack of professionalism in the press - most contracts have a clause about it
Lance certainly helped the Lemond brand demise. But, it seems to me that Lemond has had troubles with every business venture he’s been in. Bikes, real estate, trainers. For whatever reason, it seems to me that he has anything but the Midas touch in his business operations.
Lemond seems to me to be all in on this motor in bikes theory. Going back to the Lance era doesn’t seem to hold any water - the tech just wasn’t there. Honestly, I think only a few have probably tried them - but I do think a few actually have.
The one positive is the junior woman at CX worlds. I think a lot of Contador’s planned bike switches during stages the last few years seem a lot more suspicious now.
No one was really using lithium-ion batteries back then. That was the era of Lead Acid and Cadmium batteries, both of which held less energy and were much heavier. Not to mention they took up a substantial amount of space. I agree with others that motors were not really an option back then.
So either Lance was hanging on to cars a lot, or the heavy EPO dosages were enough.
And yet they are still breaking records after cycling has been cleaned up.
I doubt they’re breaking climbing records from the doping era. ~7+w/kg for 45-60 minutes is now considered blatant doping and plenty were putting up those numbers back then (and just overstating weight not to rouse suspicion.) You just don’t see pros putting up ~500w for close to an hour anymore. Froome is doing a bit over 6w/kg for an hour on some climbs which is not considered high enough to be obvious cheating.
Not to open up this stupid can of worms, but you do not recall the cloud over Froome in 2013? 3rd fastest time on record up Ax 3 Domaines (LA 2001 is 2nd), time up Ventoux matched the epic battle between Pantani and Lance in 2000. Wind is a huge factor in latter, but estimated watt/kg was ~7.2.
You have to remember that lemond is the only tour winner to not have a cloud of suspicion over him, all others you should doubt their performance.
He is the Virgin Mary of cycling.
Does this have to be in pink?
I knew many in the medical community who think he’s a total cheat. All you need to do is read the old Sports Illustrated article when he was named athlete of the year. In his own words (not mine, so don’t say that I’m falsely accusing him) he mentions how his soigner Otto Jacome diagnosed him as being anemic during the Giro in '89 and gave him an Iron treatment via IV, miraculously 5 weeks later his hematocrit is at a level to win the tour. It does not work that fast. THIS IS HIS STORY. But, yes, as he wrote today in Cycling News, miracles don’t happen. He should know. I’m an MD, and have asked many Hematologists about his story and they all laugh and roll their eyes. Until he can show the world his old CBC’s from back then, he should be treated as if he’s under a cloud of suspicion. He’s made himself judge and jury. Oh, and BTW, EPO was available in '89. ( not pointing a finger, just saying) I’m just so tired of him and the entire cycling press corp giving him a pass, when his own story raises serious medical red flags that just do not add up. Enough of his V02 max, where are the CBC’s. Sorry Greg miracles don’t happen, IV iron does not work that fast.
I’ve never heard of a direct correlation between vo2 max and power at or around threshold. Is Lemond way off base here, or is there an actual documented correlation?
