FIrst I heard of the (recent?) surge/movement back to Latin mass was during the Harrison Butker controversy. I gathered from reading up on him that it’s essentially a socially conservative movement among Catholics but I know very little about it otherwise. I just learned this week that my half sister, who converted to Jehovah’s Witness in her 20s is now Catholic and will only attend Latin mass. She’s apparently moved extremely far right, Trumper, believes women should stay home full time if they choose to have children and is best not engaged on these issues for the sake of family harmony. She and I see each other infrequently so it isn’t something that would come up and I’m not about to spend whatever little time I have with her doing so.
Has there been a resurgence in Latin mass or is this something that’s always been a small minority among Catholics and I’m just now hearing about it? Anyone here attend exclusively or know anyone who does and care to discuss?
It makes it sound spookier and more like a magical ritual. And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
jpo
Another Catholic raised atheist
This gets at what I was going to ask. Is there a singular mass, that is just a rote recitation, so that if you know it in English you can more or less follow along with the latin?
And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
I agree to the extent that the Latin mass doesn’t “cater” to the elites (who attend); it “caters” to the elites who run the system. For the most part, attenders have no better understanding of Latin than attenders of 100 years ago (500 years ago) when the worship was in Latin. Back then, it was a way for the educated elite who hosted (e.g., priests and bishops) to control the laypeople.
So, why would an attender (in today’s world) choose to attend a Latin mass? To try to capture some sense of spirituality, without bringing along one’s brain to understand the basis of that spirituality. The irony is that the Reformation brought many RCs out of this spiritual darkness; now people are voluntarily welcoming that darkness back. We humans are a lost bunch.
And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
I agree to the extent that the Latin mass doesn’t “cater” to the elites (who attend); it “caters” to the elites who run the system. For the most part, attenders have no better understanding of Latin than attenders of 100 years ago (500 years ago) when the worship was in Latin. Back then, it was a way for the educated elite who hosted (e.g., priests and bishops) to control the laypeople.
So, why would an attender (in today’s world) choose to attend a Latin mass? To try to capture some sense of spirituality, without bringing along one’s brain to understand the basis of that spirituality. The irony is that the Reformation brought many RCs out of this spiritual darkness; now people are voluntarily welcoming that darkness back. We humans are a lost bunch.
I’ve not been to a Latin Mass, but I can imagine the experience to be a bit more meditative and a lot less cerebral since very few people will understand the language. Maybe that’s a good thing? Meditation might be more valuable than thinking… I’m sure some people prefer it and it would have a bit of ‘cool factor’ to see the OG version.
If you are after a relatable and useful message from your religious ceremony, I think Catholicism is probably a bad fit for you. The newer age Protestant services are WAY more useful if that’s the goal. But, in terms of ceremony, and awe, and spiritual connection, I can see where a Latin mass might score pretty high.
Leave it up to Catholics to somehow make mass even more boring by putting it in another language.
Right, but missing the point.
Think of right worship of God as a three-legged stool of truth, beauty and goodness. The RCC mass has given up on truth/goodness long ago. Thus, the vernacular mass is boring as it is just a rote ceremony without a basis in truth or goodness. So, it seeks to double-down on its remaining aspect (i.e., beauty) by chasing something that they view as more beautiful. Sure, there’s no basis in truth/goodness to the Latin mass over the vernacular mass; but since that aspect was lost long ago, going to Latin mass seems additive to beauty insofar as the attender is chasing some bald spirituality of worship. When asked, “Why the Latin mass?”, the response is not Bible-based (i.e., truth/goodness), it’s something having to do with some humanistic view of “beauty”.
It makes it sound spookier and more like a magical ritual. And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
jpo
Another Catholic raised atheist
This gets at what I was going to ask. Is there a singular mass, that is just a rote recitation, so that if you know it in English you can more or less follow along with the latin?
Not exactly. The sermon part is not the same at each mass. Difficult to follow that in a language one doesn’t speak.
As a kid living/growing up abroad, I remember getting dragged to weekly mass. I heard them in Latin, Arabic, Greek, Spanish, Tagalog, … occasionally English. As a kid, no surprise that restlessness and boredom would take hold. Especially hard to bear if the mass turned out to be singing (where they would sign the prayers, instead of just saying them). That felt like another 6 hours, before it was over.
Is there a significant difference in doctrine that would attract certain types, social conservatives in particular? Or would it not be uncommon for social liberals to attend simply for stylistic reasons. In my limited sample size, latin mass attendees are exclusively socially conservative so I am assuming the teachings there follow suit.
I don’t think it’s a “new” thing. I think some portion of Catholics have been unhappy with the movement away from the Latin Mass since it occurred in the late 60s/early 70s. I do think the issue has come more front and center in the past few years, partially because traditionalists view it as something to hold onto in the face of more progressive movements inside the Church, and partially because Pope Francis issued some instructions requiring priests to get permission from higher authority to use the Latin Mass format instead of the newer format. That rubbed a bunch of Catholics the wrong way. Paired with the movement toward populist nationalist conservatism in the US, it’s probably gained some steam in some circles.
Has there been a resurgence in Latin mass or is this something that’s always been a small minority among Catholics and I’m just now hearing about it? Anyone here attend exclusively or know anyone who does and care to discuss?
Latin Mass has been around for for a long time. In general it’s always been quite a bit less popular among most Catholics just appealing to those those who are more traditional. We have 4 Catholic churches in the area and one does traditional Latin Masses while the others are all done in English (though I think one of the churches does a Spanish Mass maybe once a month).
I think there has probably been a small resurgence. I know one of my cousins who grew up attending “regular” Mass for the first 3+ decades of his life now attends a traditional Latin Mass church. I think his parents attend it as well. All of them made the switch right around 2020/2021. They are also ardent trump supporters
Second, it is not really about the Latin itself. It is about the rejection of the second Vatican council. The second Vatican council brought in many changes to the Church, with mass being in the local vernacular being only one many. It said things like the church should value justice and peace. And the church should respect other religions. All sorts things that pissed these freaks. So having mass in Latin is a symbolic way to reject these “progressive†changes to the church.
It makes it sound spookier and more like a magical ritual. And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
jpo
Another Catholic raised atheist
This gets at what I was going to ask. Is there a singular mass, that is just a rote recitation, so that if you know it in English you can more or less follow along with the latin?
As an altar boy participating in Latin back in the before native language days it was rote response recitation. Still the confetior was a bitch to recite without mumbling and stumbling. Probably a bitch to spell still.
It makes it sound spookier and more like a magical ritual. And caters most to the elite few who understand latin.
jpo
Another Catholic raised atheist
This gets at what I was going to ask. Is there a singular mass, that is just a rote recitation, so that if you know it in English you can more or less follow along with the latin?
Catholic Mass has the same structure everywhere. I’ve been to Mass in a few different countries over the years (Malta, Ghana, Guatamala) where I didn’t speak the language the service was in was in but I could follow along and knew where we were prayer or scripture wise at each point during the service and knew what the priest was probably saying. I just wasn’t able to recite the prayers myself or anything.
I’ve not been to a Latin Mass, but I can imagine the experience to be a bit more meditative and a lot less cerebral since very few people will understand the language. Maybe that’s a good thing? Meditation might be more valuable than thinking… I’m sure some people prefer it and it would have a bit of ‘cool factor’ to see the OG version.
Right. But, God-based worship is not primarily about getting more in-touch with your human-ness, but meeting/worshipping God. Thus, I agree with you, in the sense that if what you’re seeking is satisfying your human desires, then maybe the Latin mass experience is better. Yet, now–by stripping truth/goodness of worshipping God from the consideration–you’re in competition with yoga, workout at the gym, book club, etc.
If you are after a relatable and useful message from your religious ceremony, I think Catholicism is probably a bad fit for you. The newer age Protestant services are WAY more useful if that’s the goal. But, in terms of ceremony, and awe, and spiritual connection, I can see where a Latin mass might score pretty high.
In this sense, sure, the Modern Evangelical Church maintains a greater amount of the truth aspect (i.e., what you identified as the “useful message”) of the truth/beauty/good of worship. And, you rightly observe that the MEC worship seems to be losing its beauty aspect.