No.
Solid piece on the science. This will be an article I share over and over again.
Well written, too. Broken down into simple concepts.
I am quite surprised that this study by Poffé et al. was not mentioned, which presents data that ketone supplementation post-training may improve recovery during intensive training cycles.
From contacts I have in the pro-cycling world (both coach and athlete):
- Appropriate use of ketones giving performance increase of 1–2% (not negligible at this performance level).
- If ingested during racing, ketone esters shut down fat metabolism. Therefore vital to maintain a high CHO intake at the same time. If not, you suffer the worst bonk ever, lights completely off.
- Some pro-teams are hitting ketones hard. Since ketones are expensive, low budget teams do not have the financial resources to do this. Assuming ketones are effective, potentially exacerbates “two-speed” racing scenario.
- Anecdotal observation that cyclists who are taking ketones intensively have definitive increase in performance. However, medium to long-term health implications of intensive ketone supplementation unknown. How many years is this sustainable? Is it going to cause chronic health problems in the future?
Info comes from people I trust. However, I have no way of confirming accuracy of real world gains, just reporting the info. I’m very interested in discussion of the above, but please don’t shoot the messenger…
No.
Solid piece on the science. This will be an article I share over and over again.
Great article, thank you for posting.
On the FLO cycling ‘Faster’ podcast and some other podcasts (Trainer Road), this topic has come up. I don’t know if you do any podcasts interviews but as a listener it would be great for me to have this information spread through some of those channels as there’s lots of pro-keto or ketone supplement companies being interviewed without a measured, evidence-based perspective like the one in your article.
Wasn’t Alex’s article.
We are very lucky to have both him and Megan in our portfolio of writers this year.
Wasn’t Alex’s article.
We are very lucky to have both him and Megan in our portfolio of writers this year.
+1000
Wasn’t Alex’s article.
We are very lucky to have both him and Megan in our portfolio of writers this year.
+1000
+1001
one interesting paragraph is that in which they associated ketones and EPO (very high doses of ketones may increase short term erythropoietin levels) if this were to be true then it may mess with the biological passport? A change in red blood cell count or even a change in EPO (even endogenous) may indicate that the supplement is a PED? and if so then should it be banned from competition? not to mention taking anything that messes with natural hormonal control to me sounds like a bad idea. The body regulates these things and if it senses too much it down regulates and that could cause a bad rebound effect… I think it may be playing with fire.
I wouldn’t be too concerned with the playing with fire you mention. Hormone systems are pretty robust towards transient changes. Homeostasis is strong. There are lots of areas where researchers in sport science get excited by some hormonal change happening in response to a stimulus the did in their lab.
In virtually all cases the hormonal change is just repeatable noise in the sea of fluctuations. Any positive effect and any detrimental effect of the hormonal blip is erased by the body’s ability to regulate and recalibrate.
Examples: “lifting in such-n-such a way increases testosterone & growth hormone.” “a X:1 ratio of carbs to protein post-workout boosts testosterone.” etc. etc.
You’re welcome to toot your own horn a bit. It’s great having you on board.
PS: You still owe me pictures.
Serious question:
Has anyone who writes against the use of ketones during exercise… used them during exercise?
I strongly believe that the research being conducted is not appropriate for the use case of ketones - because when I use them it’s a night and day difference. And - this is also while consuming ~120g of CHO per hour.
For example
Last Sunday was ~4:45 of steady base
Took Ketones at ~3:30 after doing 120g /hr up to that point.
- Almost immediately my mood lifted. After 3:30 in cold-overcast- 30 degree weather I was a bit unmotivated. A few minutes after it felt like the sun was out and shining (despite it starting to snow!)
- Focus - Instead of my mind wandering like it often does, I felt very in-tune with my body and what I was doing
- Fatigue - seemed to melt away. I found myself pushing a bit more watts and purposefully pulled myself back into base.
These are anecdotal and they skew toward mental vs. physical - but they all significantly affect my performance - Just as increased CHO intake can improve mood and cognition.
They’re expensive - they taste bad - but they aren’t likely to hurt you. So, I encourage everyone to try ketones to get first hand experience if they are worthwhile.
Bold anecdotes indeed. Were they proven that efficacious, would there not be cause for PED scrutiny?
I had a bottle delivered to me by a Ketone company that wanted me to promote it. I may have thrown it away. I think it was the HVMN brand. I have yet to try it. The research has just reeked too much of “mechanism therefore application” and overzealousness, like many other things scientists who make a living by discovering new and exciting things really want to believe works.
Sometimes there’s value in anecdote, for sure. Do you mind me asking: does the ketone supplement you’re taking have any caffeine in it? Any other confounding variables you can think of in your approach?
Do you have any affiliation with any ketone company in any official or unofficial way? (not asking to be confrontational at all, just checking!)
Sometimes there’s value in anecdote, for sure. Do you mind me asking: does the ketone supplement you’re taking have any caffeine in it? Any other confounding variables you can think of in your approach?
Not dismissing xtrapickels, as he’s very credible in general, but I got a recent lesson in placebos.
A company I bought protein powder from sent me a sample of a “preworkout stimulant” drink. I used it for a few workouts, and was enjoying the extra alertness and mood lift from the combination of caffeine and nitric oxide, etc. Then when I went to throw it away, I actually read the label and found it wasn’t a preworkout stimulant, but a recovery drink that had nothing more than BCAAs and flavoring. No caffeine. It was all in my head.
I had a bottle delivered to me by a Ketone company that wanted me to promote it. I may have thrown it away. I think it was the HVMN brand. I have yet to try it. The research has just reeked too much of “mechanism therefore application” and overzealousness, like many other things scientists who make a living by discovering new and exciting things really want to believe works.
Sometimes there’s value in anecdote, for sure. Do you mind me asking: does the ketone supplement you’re taking have any caffeine in it? Any other confounding variables you can think of in your approach?
Do you have any affiliation with any ketone company in any official or unofficial way? (not asking to be confrontational at all, just checking!)
Throw the baby out with the bath water. He is right on these anti keto zealots . How about making your own version to test? Some butter and coconut milk
Butter and coconut milk? “Normally I eat grass when I want to puke†- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
Well written article. Very informative. Now I know why Primoz Roglic is always crashing.
Another caveat of ketone supplements is their potential to cause GI distress, nausea, and dizziness which could lead to poor performance outcomes.
Butter and coconut milk? “Normally I eat grass when I want to puke†- Triumph the Insult Comic Dog
typical mix for bullet proof coffee. both fats have plent of MCT saturated fats (easy to digest)
At least troll on-topic…ketone consumption vs. “keto diet.”
Serious question:
Has anyone who writes against the use of ketones during exercise… used them during exercise?
I strongly believe that the research being conducted is not appropriate for the use case of ketones - because when I use them it’s a night and day difference. And - this is also while consuming ~120g of CHO per hour.
For example
Last Sunday was ~4:45 of steady base
Took Ketones at ~3:30 after doing 120g /hr up to that point.
- Almost immediately my mood lifted. After 3:30 in cold-overcast- 30 degree weather I was a bit unmotivated. A few minutes after it felt like the sun was out and shining (despite it starting to snow!)
- Focus - Instead of my mind wandering like it often does, I felt very in-tune with my body and what I was doing
- Fatigue - seemed to melt away. I found myself pushing a bit more watts and purposefully pulled myself back into base.
These are anecdotal and they skew toward mental vs. physical - but they all significantly affect my performance - Just as increased CHO intake can improve mood and cognition.
They’re expensive - they taste bad - but they aren’t likely to hurt you. So, I encourage everyone to try ketones to get first hand experience if they are worthwhile.
I thought the article was good and somewhat balanced with comments like
“I’m going to hold off until we have more conclusive research”
“Overall, findings on ketone supplements and performance have been mixed and inconclusive.”
like a previous poster (Duncan), the feedback I got from acquaintances at the world tour level were
- it’s inconclusive, doesn’t work for everyone
- some riders swear by it.
- they believe there is no harm
- they are following closely as them believe there is something there
Did you ever podcast on the subject ?