More data in the “eat more carbs” camp. https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12986-017-0175-5
This is a relatively subjective study, as far as these things go, and I wouldn’t say it’s particularly revolutionary. But it does seem to be yet another data point in the increasingly obvious array of data that just doesn’t back up KD for athletes.
First of all, let me say I’m a huge proponent of eating carbs for optimal performance, but I do have a decent amount of practical experience with KD. This study has a few areas where I would have done things very differently:
“Compliance with the dietary regimen was monitored by measuring urinary ketones daily”
I would have thought that for a scientific study, they wouldn’t choose the least reliable measurement method. Urine is least accurate. Blood and breath are significantly more accurate.
" limit their carbohydrate intake to a maximum of 20–40 g/day "
That’s way too low for an athlete. There is an optimal range for athletes - under 4 mmol blood measurement of ketones. Which usually would be 150g per day. With my own testing, I could maintain 3-4 mmol levels on intake upwards of 200g per day.
If I were designing a test to fail, I would design it exactly like theirs. On the opposite side of the spectrum, Volek’s faster study is also ridiculously flawed.
But at the end of the day, I agree, if you want to go fast, eat enough carbs!
Everybody knows keto falls on its face at say mid tempo and above. If you are doing aerobic exercise that requires that type of power then you should do targeted keto for that event or training.
" Everybody knows keto falls on its face at say mid tempo and above. If you are doing aerobic exercise that requires that type of power then you should do targeted keto for that event or training. "
Apparently I am outside of the “everybody” group. I have been eating in a similar manner to what is described by RobGrey- for over a year, and my training and racing performances have all improved. I know a number of other people on this type of diet who have all noted positive results. As RobGrey pointed out the study on this post is very flawed in a number of ways, including a conclusion that first states that there was no significant impact on measured fitness, and then concludes that it might be an issue for competitive athletes.
My main purpose for the training I do is to improve my health- to me in seems counter intuitive to spend time building the fitness of my body, then turn around and subject it to all of the problems associated with a high carb diet- (insulin pikes, hormone imbalances, diabetes risk, Alzheimer’s risk, constant inflammation…) . There is a BIG difference between eating a diet at about 30% carbs (which is a solid, healthy number), and the 60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Lastly, there is that little known triathlete- Mark Allen- who after modifying his training was able to run low 5 minute pace at a dominant fat burning energy level. That seems pretty competitive to me!
Why are so many people offended and/or upset that you can actually be competitive AND healthy ?[
Reminds me that this might not have been raised on the forum before: along the same lines but a high quality well controlled study in elite endurance athletes by some of the best people in the world at this type of research:
no one found this interesting??
handgrip strength rose slightly from 40.1 ± 8.8 to 41.0 ± 9.1 kg by 2.5% (P = 0.047)
so seems beneficial for fast twitch folk? weight lifters, sprinters…
no one found this interesting??
handgrip strength rose slightly from 40.1 ± 8.8 to 41.0 ± 9.1 kg by 2.5% (P = 0.047)
so seems beneficial for fast twitch folk? weight lifters, sprinters…
Too big of a stretch based on this data. A small increase like that, while statistically significant is nothing much. And it could just be due to testing order due to the study design.
The Mark Allen example doesn’t really correlate to this study or question from the diet side of the equation. Training adaptation, with or without the presence of skewed metabolic expenditures, are a different discussion and *perhaps *when both are altered they can potentially “feed” off each other producing some sweet spots for certain intensities or individuals.
60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion?
Because on the face of it it’s ridiculous - even those athletes who desperately want to get to 70% carbs have to be highly disciplined to do so, much less the “average North American” who eats at McDonalds on a regular basis.
60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Do you have any evidence to back up that assertion?
Because on the face of it it’s ridiculous - even those athletes who desperately want to get to 70% carbs have to be highly disciplined to do so, much less the “average North American” who eats at McDonalds on a regular basis.
If this is what I think it is https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/diet.htm the typical American diet is about half carbs (I’m going to hazard a guess that a lot of that is highly refined grains and sugar), a third fat, and the remaining 15% or so protein.
no one found this interesting??
handgrip strength rose slightly from 40.1 ± 8.8 to 41.0 ± 9.1 kg by 2.5% (P = 0.047)
so seems beneficial for fast twitch folk? weight lifters, sprinters…
Too big of a stretch based on this data. A small increase like that, while statistically significant is nothing much. And it could just be due to testing order due to the study design.
the cycling test also had a similar change to that degree
" Everybody knows keto falls on its face at say mid tempo and above. If you are doing aerobic exercise that requires that type of power then you should do targeted keto for that event or training. "
Apparently I am outside of the “everybody” group. I have been eating in a similar manner to what is described by RobGrey- for over a year, and my training and racing performances have all improved. I know a number of other people on this type of diet who have all noted positive results. As RobGrey pointed out the study on this post is very flawed in a number of ways, including a conclusion that first states that there was no significant impact on measured fitness, and then concludes that it might be an issue for competitive athletes.
My main purpose for the training I do is to improve my health- to me in seems counter intuitive to spend time building the fitness of my body, then turn around and subject it to all of the problems associated with a high carb diet- (insulin pikes, hormone imbalances, diabetes risk, Alzheimer’s risk, constant inflammation…) . There is a BIG difference between eating a diet at about 30% carbs (which is a solid, healthy number), and the 60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Lastly, there is that little known triathlete- Mark Allen- who after modifying his training was able to run low 5 minute pace at a dominant fat burning energy level. That seems pretty competitive to me!
Why are so many people offended and/or upset that you can actually be competitive AND healthy ?
Let’s let the performance element on the side for the moment. (I am not entirely sure but do believe that performance is hindered to some extend with low carb. Especially when you need intensity).
But lets look on the health side. There are good and bot so good and downright bad foods you can eat. But by no means is an entire macronutrient bad for your health.
People tend to hop from one extreme to the next. Years ago all fat was deemed to be bad. When one found out that they are essential and some of them really healthy some people just switched their belief entirely and now carbs are the new devil. But carbs are not just pasta and biscuits and sugar and can enhance ones health.
The problem with diabetes is not just sugar but a combination of fat and sugar and too many calories. There are some native cultures that basically live off carbs. They have no diabetes and metabolise their carbs with no insulin. And they are perfectly healthy. Their body is just so well adapted to it.
Nor is insulin itself a bad thing.
Risk factors for diabetes are also casein consumption, too much meat or too much fat.
Another thing is cancer. Sure, there are cancer cells that feed off carbs. But there are other forms of cancer that are fueld by fat. It is not yet possible to determine what a particular form of cancer cell craves.
Also keto diets have shown to be too low in fibre and lead to unfavorable gut ph. Thus ones good gut bacteria is killed.
I think one can be healthy on a higher fat OR a higher carb diet. It might be a personal thing. But go too low with carbs and it can mess up your metabolsim.
It can also be a self fulfilling prophecy. One abstains from carbs religiously because one think it is bad. Ones body loses its ability to process them. One eats them on an occasion again only to see that it leads to problems. One feels reassured.
I eat more on the carb side and I feel great. My mood is good, my energy is high and i can still go for hours without eating.
I say I eat high carb but I hardly ever eat pasta, bread, processed sugar or cakes etc. My foundation is potatoes, (white) rice, millet, quinoa, oats, fruit, veggies, chickpeas.
Of course I also eat meat and have my fat sources, but carbs are my main thing to go.
I don’t want to attack you or your way of eating but just show that there are different sides of the coin. One (myself often included) is usually trapped on one of them.
I try to listen to vegans, paleo guys and native cultures or tcm at the same time. Vegand eat lots of different veggies and fibre, paleos value high quality meat and promote fasting. I think the most important thing is that you eat unprocessed stuff and listen to your body.
" Everybody knows keto falls on its face at say mid tempo and above. If you are doing aerobic exercise that requires that type of power then you should do targeted keto for that event or training. "
Apparently I am outside of the “everybody” group. I have been eating in a similar manner to what is described by RobGrey- for over a year, and my training and racing performances have all improved. I know a number of other people on this type of diet who have all noted positive results. As RobGrey pointed out the study on this post is very flawed in a number of ways, including a conclusion that first states that there was no significant impact on measured fitness, and then concludes that it might be an issue for competitive athletes.
My main purpose for the training I do is to improve my health- to me in seems counter intuitive to spend time building the fitness of my body, then turn around and subject it to all of the problems associated with a high carb diet- (insulin pikes, hormone imbalances, diabetes risk, Alzheimer’s risk, constant inflammation…) . There is a BIG difference between eating a diet at about 30% carbs (which is a solid, healthy number), and the 60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Lastly, there is that little known triathlete- Mark Allen- who after modifying his training was able to run low 5 minute pace at a dominant fat burning energy level. That seems pretty competitive to me!
Why are so many people offended and/or upset that you can actually be competitive AND healthy ?
Let’s let the performance element on the side for the moment. (I am not entirely sure but do believe that performance is hindered to some extend with low carb. Especially when you need intensity).
But lets look on the health side. There are good and bot so good and downright bad foods you can eat. But by no means is an entire macronutrient bad for your health.
People tend to hop from one extreme to the next. Years ago all fat was deemed to be bad. When one found out that they are essential and some of them really healthy some people just switched their belief entirely and now carbs are the new devil. But carbs are not just pasta and biscuits and sugar and can enhance ones health.
The problem with diabetes is not just sugar but a combination of fat and sugar and too many calories. There are some native cultures that basically live off carbs. They have no diabetes and metabolise their carbs with no insulin. And they are perfectly healthy. Their body is just so well adapted to it.
Nor is insulin itself a bad thing.
Risk factors for diabetes are also casein consumption, too much meat or too much fat.
Another thing is cancer. Sure, there are cancer cells that feed off carbs. But there are other forms of cancer that are fueld by fat. It is not yet possible to determine what a particular form of cancer cell craves.
Also keto diets have shown to be too low in fibre and lead to unfavorable gut ph. Thus ones good gut bacteria is killed.
I think one can be healthy on a higher fat OR a higher carb diet. It might be a personal thing. But go too low with carbs and it can mess up your metabolsim.
It can also be a self fulfilling prophecy. One abstains from carbs religiously because one think it is bad. Ones body loses its ability to process them. One eats them on an occasion again only to see that it leads to problems. One feels reassured.
I eat more on the carb side and I feel great. My mood is good, my energy is high and i can still go for hours without eating.
I say I eat high carb but I hardly ever eat pasta, bread, processed sugar or cakes etc. My foundation is potatoes, (white) rice, millet, quinoa, oats, fruit, veggies, chickpeas.
Of course I also eat meat and have my fat sources, but carbs are my main thing to go.
I don’t want to attack you or your way of eating but just show that there are different sides of the coin. One (myself often included) is usually trapped on one of them.
I try to listen to vegans, paleo guys and native cultures or tcm at the same time. Vegand eat lots of different veggies and fibre, paleos value high quality meat and promote fasting. I think the most important thing is that you eat unprocessed stuff and listen to your body.
And the last thing is really where you lost me as I have tried most of the diets (or ways of eating) that you mentioned about and find a loose version of paleo works best for me and my body. Telling anyone to listen to there body when food supply in any form is abundant is complete crap and simply does not work. In America at least and possibly most of the developed world our lives are built around conserving energy (or increase efficiency for companies) and have food (mostly processed) thrown at us in every way. We center our whole lives around eating meals and enjoying food and I believe that we are programmed to take in calories whether we need them or not. If I were to listen to my body I would probably gain 30 lbs quick as I want food that is savory and sweet.
I think nutrition and diet is probably the most important topic that is just not being discussed enough in and especially outside of endurance sports.
I wish we had 100 more people like Rob Gray trying different things and reporting results.
Agreed.
I had the opportunity to listen to Dr. Louise Burke (Head of Sport Nutrition at the Australian Institute of Sport; team dietician for the Australian Olympic team) speak at a conference this past year. Most of what she talked about re: low-carb diets is summarized in her review article linked below (free!).
" Everybody knows keto falls on its face at say mid tempo and above. If you are doing aerobic exercise that requires that type of power then you should do targeted keto for that event or training. "
Apparently I am outside of the “everybody” group. I have been eating in a similar manner to what is described by RobGrey- for over a year, and my training and racing performances have all improved. I know a number of other people on this type of diet who have all noted positive results. As RobGrey pointed out the study on this post is very flawed in a number of ways, including a conclusion that first states that there was no significant impact on measured fitness, and then concludes that it might be an issue for competitive athletes.
My main purpose for the training I do is to improve my health- to me in seems counter intuitive to spend time building the fitness of my body, then turn around and subject it to all of the problems associated with a high carb diet- (insulin pikes, hormone imbalances, diabetes risk, Alzheimer’s risk, constant inflammation…) . There is a BIG difference between eating a diet at about 30% carbs (which is a solid, healthy number), and the 60-70% carbs that is the average in North American diets.
Lastly, there is that little known triathlete- Mark Allen- who after modifying his training was able to run low 5 minute pace at a dominant fat burning energy level. That seems pretty competitive to me!
Why are so many people offended and/or upset that you can actually be competitive AND healthy ?
Let’s let the performance element on the side for the moment. (I am not entirely sure but do believe that performance is hindered to some extend with low carb. Especially when you need intensity).
But lets look on the health side. There are good and bot so good and downright bad foods you can eat. But by no means is an entire macronutrient bad for your health.
People tend to hop from one extreme to the next. Years ago all fat was deemed to be bad. When one found out that they are essential and some of them really healthy some people just switched their belief entirely and now carbs are the new devil. But carbs are not just pasta and biscuits and sugar and can enhance ones health.
The problem with diabetes is not just sugar but a combination of fat and sugar and too many calories. There are some native cultures that basically live off carbs. They have no diabetes and metabolise their carbs with no insulin. And they are perfectly healthy. Their body is just so well adapted to it.
Nor is insulin itself a bad thing.
Risk factors for diabetes are also casein consumption, too much meat or too much fat.
Another thing is cancer. Sure, there are cancer cells that feed off carbs. But there are other forms of cancer that are fueld by fat. It is not yet possible to determine what a particular form of cancer cell craves.
Also keto diets have shown to be too low in fibre and lead to unfavorable gut ph. Thus ones good gut bacteria is killed.
I think one can be healthy on a higher fat OR a higher carb diet. It might be a personal thing. But go too low with carbs and it can mess up your metabolsim.
It can also be a self fulfilling prophecy. One abstains from carbs religiously because one think it is bad. Ones body loses its ability to process them. One eats them on an occasion again only to see that it leads to problems. One feels reassured.
I eat more on the carb side and I feel great. My mood is good, my energy is high and i can still go for hours without eating.
I say I eat high carb but I hardly ever eat pasta, bread, processed sugar or cakes etc. My foundation is potatoes, (white) rice, millet, quinoa, oats, fruit, veggies, chickpeas.
Of course I also eat meat and have my fat sources, but carbs are my main thing to go.
I don’t want to attack you or your way of eating but just show that there are different sides of the coin. One (myself often included) is usually trapped on one of them.
I try to listen to vegans, paleo guys and native cultures or tcm at the same time. Vegand eat lots of different veggies and fibre, paleos value high quality meat and promote fasting. I think the most important thing is that you eat unprocessed stuff and listen to your body.
And the last thing is really where you lost me as I have tried most of the diets (or ways of eating) that you mentioned about and find a loose version of paleo works best for me and my body. Telling anyone to listen to there body when food supply in any form is abundant is complete crap and simply does not work. In America at least and possibly most of the developed world our lives are built around conserving energy (or increase efficiency for companies) and have food (mostly processed) thrown at us in every way. We center our whole lives around eating meals and enjoying food and I believe that we are programmed to take in calories whether we need them or not. If I were to listen to my body I would probably gain 30 lbs quick as I want food that is savory and sweet.
I think nutrition and diet is probably the most important topic that is just not being discussed enough in and especially outside of endurance sports.
I wish we had 100 more people like Rob Gray trying different things and reporting results.
I see what you mean. But I didn’t mean it in the way; oh that biscuit looks so good I need it now.
I mean listen to your body how you feel after you have eaten something and the day after. Do you have energy, how is your mood? How is your satiety? Are you comfortably full?
To truly listen to the signs of your body you need to stop eating processed junk food first and replace it with natural stuff. After some time your body tells you very well what it needs. You learn to differentiate between true hunger and cravings.
I just did Ultraman Florida a couple of days ago.
I know some wouldn’t say my result is exceptional but if I count a 500m longer swim due to getting off course, having 12 red lights on the bike on day 1 and a gazillion stop signs. On day 3 I was dealing with hip and keen injuries since I had two bike crashes on the same hip and knee in a three month period prior to the race - and all my training runs and the majority of my training bike rides were painful.
On the top of that I’m 48 years old and all that while on a ketogenic diet.
My nutrition was very simple - 90Cal of SuperStarch each 1.5h for all thee days. The day before day 1 I ate breakfast in the morning and my next meal was after I finished day 1 - more than 24h later.
I switched to a ketogenic diet in August 2015 sacrificing Kona 2015 (and I sucked) since I new I would not be able to adapt in such a short time.
Boki
Metabolise carbs with no insulin? As a type 1 diabetic I would like to see the literature on that one
"The problem with diabetes is not just sugar but a combination of fat and sugar and too many calories. There are some native cultures that basically live off carbs. They have no diabetes and metabolise their carbs with no insulin. And they are perfectly healthy. Their body is just so well adapted to it.
Nor is insulin itself a bad thing.
Risk factors for diabetes are also casein consumption, too much meat or too much fat. "
A lot of strange claims in this quote. I can assure you that a normal physiology in those cultures is producing insulin in response to carbs. Insulin in the body does much more than to just help move glucose into cells, and is being emitted in small amounts all day (in healthy people).
And I’m not sure how you came up with the claim that dairy products or “too much fat” can cause diabetes.
Type 2 is generally associated with a sedentary lifestyle, too many calories, particularly in the form of simple carbs, overweight/obesity, then eventually a resistance in the cells to the body’s own insulin, and then declining pancreatic function (insulin and other hormones, which will cause a host of other problems).
How did you feel during the race? Shoot me an email at texafornia at the gmails and let’s chat! This could be good interview material. I had Rob on twice to detail what he did and people loved it.
I just did Ultraman Florida a couple of days ago.
I know some wouldn’t say my result is exceptional but if I count a 500m longer swim due to getting off course, having 12 red lights on the bike on day 1 and a gazillion stop signs. On day 3 I was dealing with hip and keen injuries since I had two bike crashes on the same hip and knee in a three month period prior to the race - and all my training runs and the majority of my training bike rides were painful.
On the top of that I’m 48 years old and all that while on a ketogenic diet.
My nutrition was very simple - 90Cal of SuperStarch each 1.5h for all thee days. The day before day 1 I ate breakfast in the morning and my next meal was after I finished day 1 - more than 24h later.
I switched to a ketogenic diet in August 2015 sacrificing Kona 2015 (and I sucked) since I new I would not be able to adapt in such a short time.
Boki
I just wanted to say congrats on your UMFL finish given all the crashes too.
In terms of this thread, I am just reading and absorbing. I’ve tended to lean towards the high carb end while maintaining fairly low body fat all my adult/triathlete life. Being exposed to Rob Gray, in the last 2 years, I have added a lot more good fats to my diet. The only thing I have really noticed is desire to eat a bit less frequently…probably the calorie total is the same over the day. I have not really done any long course racing in 2 years, but I had a riding camp in the Alps last summer where I felt I was on fire between hours 4 and hours 7 of our daily 5-7 hours of riding. But there could be many factors at play, but if my body is gradually training itself to consume available fats for energy better, I figure it is worth the experiment (as long as I don’t turn into a complete pillbury doughboy in the process which does not seem to be happening as I am 2-3 lbs above race weight with no races in the horizon).