Does any one have any idea how the top ITU guys’ tri run times look compared to their open run times? Guys like Gomez and Brownlee have crept below 30 minutes for a tri 10k, but does anyone know what their open 10k, 5k, or even 1500m / mile times are?
I was listening to a recent interview with Jarrod Shoemaker and he was talking about how if you cant run a sub 14min 5k then you have no chance of staying with the the front run group for ITU
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I do not know, but I will speculate that they are running a lot closer to their open times during the tris than we would expect. It seems likely that at the very highest levels, that their endurance will be so well developed that they will be nearly full speed. Of course, they have the added advantage many times of a tactical group ride where they get to sit in and rest.
I would love to see power and HR metrics from them real time during the race, much like we’ve seen in the Tour. It would be really interesting to see how much they are or aren’t working in the peloton.
I asked the same question about two-three years ago here on ST.
Jonnyo chimed in and said that it’s about within 30 seconds if I recall.
Based on talking to others including Gwen Jorgenson, I’d agree that they are very close to their stand alone times.
Hope that helps a bit.
Gomez ran 13:53 a short time before European championships last year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IAZwjkmuYc
Tim Don ran 28:50something at the Manchester 10k last year. http://www.triathlon.org/news/article/tim_don_excels_at_great_manchester_10k/
Brownlee has run well under 30 at 10ks before the tri season has started up. here are some of his races from 2009 and before: http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=14069
Depends on what “front group” you’re talking about. If you’re talking about THE front, which is usually Gomez + Brownlee, then yeah, you’re gonna have to be able to run under 14 minutes for a 5k. I wouldn’t call two people a group though.
There are probably a few guys who can run under 14 for a 5k but who aren’t in the front of every ITU race. I don’t know for sure, I’m just guessing. There’s more to it than raw 5k speed.
Keep in mind the actual distance of some ITU courses vs. certified run courses, when you’re doing your comparison.
Tim Don ran 28:56 last year at the Great Manchester 10k and won Hy-Vee with a 31:12. Manchester was overcast and just about perfect temperature but a bit wet, while Hy-Vee was pretty hot.
However, if you look at examples like that and also Greg Bennett’s performances on non-drafing vs ITU races you tend to see about a 1 min difference. It would appear that compared to an open 10k you’re looking at 1-2 min difference.
But, all that said, it’s hard to compare. Courses are different, climate conditions are different, and most importantly many of the ITU courses are short.
Personally I feel like you can gain about a minute if you can ride in the pack at ITU vs running off a non-draft bike. I think many of the ITU guys are pretty close to their true ability at 10k because they are trained as triathletes not solely runners, thus they lack a bit of the sharpness and speed of a run specific athlete. Finally I think most of the ITU splits are not full 10k. Realistically I would say we rarely see a sub-30 10k splits and more likely 30-31 min on the average for the fastest splits if we are dealing with a true 10k. That is not entirely the ITU’s fault. When setting a course they are restricted by available options and they’re going to have to create 10k-ish distances. It will be difficult to always have a precise 10k in all events. But, I feel very confident in saying most all of the sub-30 splits are short.
In the end it doesn’t matter as long as it’s not something like 7k.
That park about the 10k ish is more shown at Hyvee with tim don bc it is accurate with the 180 turnarounds that they have to do instead of looping around city blocks.
So, does anyone have any idea how their training is set up? I am a former collegiate runner. I’ve done tri’s, and I’d like to get into ITU racing. It’s been a while since I’ve put in any serious training, but I’ve recently started back. I’ve been running exclusively for the last few months. My plan was to get my run times back down again over the next year or two. I also plan to swim, but I’m not going to be biking much, if at all. My plan is to run almost exclusively till the spring track season, do some summer tris, take a little time off, then start training for xc nationals in the winter. If I still swim over that time, how much biking would I need to do to get reasonably bike fit for a 40k between spring and summer?
The key isn’t so much the run times but the fact that they can run that after swimming fast and riding the bike. If you’re serious about ITU racing, I would think it critical to get your swimming going first and foremost.
If you’re serious about long term development and getting into ITU, unless you have serious competitive swimming background, I would focus all your energy on running and swimming. Join a masters club or find a good coach. As for the times, former collegiate runners w/ 14 flat 5k and 29 flat prs who are just getting into tris the last two years seem to be running the similiar splits as good ITU guys - I’m thinking of Jefferson and VanOrt specifically. Former collegiate swimmers who are making the front pack, or swimming as fast guys who do, are 4:30-4:40 500 scy guys.
This is an oft cited article around here. 10 years ago you had to be a ‘shark’ or a ‘cheetah’. Nowadays, guys like Brownlee, Docherty, Frodeno, etc are both based on their open swim/run times and the standards he sets up.
The swim and bike before the run is without a doubt a huge factor, but you need to have the pure running ability to be able to run those kind of times. Running, more so than swimming and biking, is a discipline that does not lend itself to huge gains in terms of speed unless you can concentrate on it. It would be more likely that someone would be able to reach near their potential in swimming and biking while doing other things than it would be in running. I feel like once you get back that pure running speed, it would be possible to maintain a lot of that while swimming and biking. It would be very difficult, however, to reach your true running potential while also trying to swim and bike.
I understand where you’re coming from with regard to the running but if are aiming to perform well in draft legal racing, run fitness doesn’t matter at all if your swimming isn’t up to snuff.
If you don’t come from a swimming background, that will likely be the hardest part of this process and take the longest to develop.
If you don’t come from a swimming background, that will likely be the hardest part of this process and take the longest to develop.
x2
No reason you can’t run 60 miles a week and swim 20k. It’s going to take years of swimming to go under 5 in the 500, which is where you need to be unless you wanna be alone on the bike.
For a runner, the trick is to keep as much running speed as possible with as little run training as possible…this because you need lots and lots of swim and bike training to get yourself near the front runners in the first place.
Fortunately, you can draft in those 2 disciplines which can help.
If you are doing 23 hours a week of cardio training but only 35 miles of running…how much of your current run performance can you maintain? Perhaps a lot.
Because there are limited opportunities to race draft-legal in the U.S. for anyone over 23; I’d suggest trying to get into the Clermont race just to see what it is like. Granted, it won’t be like an ITU race in terms of the wider range of level of abilities but I suspect that there will be enough competition to allow you to experience the near constant redline energy expenditure.
You have the running skills (I’m assuming that this is true), you didn’t mention your swimming level. I think most people will agree that significant time drops in swimming are very hard to come by unless you are putting in lots of yards (and having someone to make stroke corrections as needed).
For a runner, the trick is to keep as much running speed as possible with as little run training as possible…this because you need lots and lots of swim and bike training to get yourself near the front runners in the first place.
Fortunately, you can draft in those 2 disciplines which can help.
If you are doing 23 hours a week of cardio training but only 35 miles of running…how much of your current run performance can you maintain? Perhaps a lot.
I’d be curious to see a gomez/brownlee/whitfield run program over a week…
I’d be curious to see a gomez/brownlee/whitfield run program over a week…
Wouldn’t we all? I’m sure it varies a lot throughout the year.
I know this has been posted before, but in case you missed it. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/columnists/paul_kimmage/article7069674.ece
Doesn’t give you a whole lot of detail, but it does give you a general idea about how much he is running.
So we’re saying sub-5:00 for 500scy or 500m? Either one will suck. Is that a goal swim time that is a pretty good indicator?
SCY. I mean…I just made it up. It’s not an official benchmark or anything, but rather based off of my racing experience - guys who could swim that fast, if good in OW, had potential to hang with the front swim pack. Like I said though, front pack swimmers are very, very good swimmers in many cases - and many have a 4:30 or faster 500 scy in their resume. There are other guys, with collegiate swimming backgrounds, who haven’t necessarily swam that fast, but who are just good at OW and still swim A LOT that they can hang on no problem.
If you haven’t, check out the link I posted above (http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/sharks.html) That gives you an idea of how good the top guys are. When I said nowadays the top athletes are sharks and cheetahs, I meant they’re capable of hitting *both *the standards Lew Kidder idenitifies as benchmarks for being a shark or cheetah.
Obviously the best indicator would be to go out and do 1500 lcm - if you can crack 18 minutes then you’ve got a shot at making a packs at some continental cups, again, if you can swim in OW and have drafting, sighting, etc mastered.
As for running volume, it totally depends. If you’re either a. insanely talented (can run 25 low 8k off of 30 mpw), or b. ran 80-100+ mpw week in college and were a boss in xc and the 10k, then you obviously don’t need to run 70-80 mpw in triathlon training. Good xc and steeple runners seem to be able to run well off the bike. I was neither, haha. It totally depends on your background, the miles you have in the tank, and how well you can naturally run off the bike. After two years in the sport of triathlon, one taken seriously (after running and swimming in college), I’m still figuring out what does and does not work for me. It takes time and everyone needs to figure out what works for them. That said, an ITU focus (lots of swimming and running) is going to look different than a non drafting (where you can just learn to swim, and put in a lot of time on the bike and see success). It’s a mult-year project, so finding a coach or experienced athlete with ITU experience would be a good start, even just to ask questions and get a sense of how to plan the next year or two out.