On another thread, some brought up the (recurring) idea that ITU doesn’t test atheles as much as non-drafting does. I have no direct experience with ITU racing, but the stories I hear about how they rides are still hammerfests and getting dropped is always a huge risk make it seem that ITU isn’t any easier.
Does anyone have direct experience to know if ITU riding is easier than non-drafting?
It can be both. Depends on the course conditions too. If you miss the first pack by a few seconds, it can get very hard in the first minutes of the bike leg (try to bridge the gap). On a challenging bike course, it can be really tough to hang to the pack when people are attacking. There are some brutal surges out there. You can’t get into your rythm for the whole bike leg, like for no-draft races.
Ask Simon Lessing. He’s been a world champion at both drafting and non drafting world’s. He was a marked man at Sydney and could not do much to escape, eventually frying his legs more than the guys who just “sat in” and did relatively nothing. Olivier Marceau won world’s 2000 by racing off the front so he did a “non drafting race” and won, but tried the same at the Olympic and got ran down around 6K in. The pros that do both say that each is “tougher” in its own way. Certainly the run at at ITU world cups has got to be tougher…
Personally, I’d like to see the format go to 2K swim-60K bike-10K run. This would still be wrapped up in ~2:40 but would make the bike breakaways more viable.
Next time you do a criterium over 40km, go run a really hard 10km off the bike.
I would think at a minimum that it would make the swim a lot harder, watching the race in Boston last year, it was very hard for the guys, not in the 1st group out of the water.
ITU Olyimpic distance triathlon is the hardest of them all TO RACE(not to finish) including the Ironman distance.
Starting from swimming:
You can not just survive the swim or take it easy you have to be getting out of the water with the first group of guys or you basically stand no chance.
Bike:
It is like a crit race if you get dropped you are toast and if it is a hilly course it is even harder,no saving the legs for the run.
Run:
As somebody else said try running a sub 40min 10K after a hard contested crit.
I’m still not convinced! Take Tim Don, average swimmer, very average biker, superb runner => can win ITU races. However, in a non-drafting race he’s nothing…
SteveMc
If you’re a strong cyclist, I believe that draft legal races can be harder than non draft legal races. If you’re in the front pack, you ride very hard to stay away. If you miss the front pack, then you ride very hard to catch up, or at least minimize the loss.
For the not so strong cyclists, they can often catch a ride during a draft legal race. Non draft legal races may actually be easier for strong cyclists because they get to control their pace.
Next time you do a criterium over 40km, go run a really hard 10km off the bike.
(not that I’ve ever done it, mind you)
I felt a lot more able to run after a crit than after a 40km TT than. That’d go extra for a crit that didn’t have a sprint at the end.
In ITU races you need to be a more complete cyclist than in non drafting races. That doesn’t mean it is harder or easier it just means you have to be prepared for a lot of change of pace work as well as possibly time trialing if your caught alone.
Like comparing a run interval workout to a run time trial both hurt in different ways.
Most age group triathletes could be very competitive at cycling time trials but would have a difficult time not getting dropped in criteriums by the same athletes they could easily beat in time trials. Age group triathletes train to develop their thresholds and spend little time training above this speed so can’t recover well from jumps which require a greater anaerobic commitment. ITU racing also requires greater cornering and pack skills than in a regular time trial.
It is true that some ITU athletes aren’t as strong on the bike as others but I wouldn’t say that even the poorest riders in the ITU pack are poor riders. The intensity of the races is just too high for weak cyclists to hang on. Plus the ITU has done a great job of ensuring most (obvious exception was last year in Gamagori Japan) World Championships and Olympic Championship races are on hilly courses which takes a complete athlete to win.
In regards to the earlier comment about Tim Don being an average swimmer. I guess it depends who your comparing him too. If you compare him to world record holder 1500 swimmer Grant Hackett who can swim under 15 minutes for the distance I agree he is probably pretty average but Tim finished in the top 3 in ITU rankings last season and was consistently in the first pack out of the water which means he can swim in the 16:30 - 17:30 range for the distance which I wouldn’t consider average in triathlon circles. I don’t know Tim’s time trial ability but I’d be willing to argue it’s probably above poor or the lead pack would get rid of him prior to the run knowing they will likely get beat. Perhaps again he would be considered poor if you compared him to the Pro cycling peleton. However, he is staying with some pretty strong athletes Like Simon Whitfield, Beven Docherty and others who have won big non drafting events like lifetime fitness and Chicago so obviously have some time trial talent.
You are definitely correct about bike handling skills.
The original post, the one that I replied to, asked if anybody with first hand experience had an opinion about what style of racing was easier as far as the cycling portion of the race was concerned. Since I assumed that he was talking about perceived exertion, and not bike handling skills, I answered his question. Since bike handling skills can effect how easy or hard we perceive a race to be, I suppose that I could have also commented on that.
Yes, the ITU has recently done a great job at making the bike portion of their races very challenging.
As for the earlier comment about Tim Don, since I never mentioned anything about Tim, I’ll take it that you’re replying to another person’s post.
The original post was trying to dig into one thought (in the Allen/Scott thread and recurrs regularly) which argues that today’s athletes don’t work as hard because ITU draft-legal races means that today’s athletes don’t train or race as hard as those of 20 years ago.
So I wanted to know if people (who know) think ITU racing/training is easier because the ride is draft legal.
what is your definition of average swimmer???
i m a 49 minutes swimmer ironman athlete…most of the time out of the water in top 3 or 5 at worst…and Tim can kick my ass big time…he will probably be out in 46 minutes…maybe thats average for you but it s freaking fast anyway…and beleive me…he can ride too…i race a lot against him but most often in a bike pack chasing him…
It really depends on the day, the course and who wants to work in a pack.
It is true that in 1999 and 2000, most of the races use to settle into a big pack and the best runner usually won. I think athletes like Craig Walton and Chris McCormick challenged this by trying to win the race on bike breakaways in 2001 forcing the pack to improve their cycling abilities.
ITU races are always evolving. Athletes focus their training on what is needed to win when the races seem to start getting predictable in terms of how they will play out is usually when someone will try to win some other way. Peter Robertson has won a couple of World Championships by being aggressive and making a break on the bike, but also won last year in Gamagori by sitting in the pack. You pretty well have to be able to do everything well in today’s racing but the race is still won on the run, but can easily be lost in the swim or bike.
The quality of field has become so good though that the winner now always comes from the lead pack off the bike
what does it say about a Michelle Jones or Simon Lessing going from ITU to success at IM?
As Simon’s sponsor of several years ( American Interbanc), he likely would not respond. As he currently feels and has long felt ITU racing is not worth talking about. His believe is that the best athlete does not win anyway. Although he obviously killed himself on the bike.
ITU racing has evolved over the years. When I participated in draft legal races in the late 90s, a lot of the races were held on flat, technically easy courses. It wasn’t much fun to watch or participate in. This was especially true in the men’s races, as the men usually came out of the swim together, or close enough to end up coming off of the bike together.
The ITU courses are very different these days, and you need to be more of a ‘cyclist’ in order to consistently race well. The women still tend to split up during the swim and bike more than the men do, which makes it very difficult to be successful if you aren’t good in all three disciplines.
As for the original question about it being harder. I found it easier to race in non draft legal races, as cycling was one of my strengths. Because cycling was one of my strengths, and not running, I had to be more aggressive on my bike during a draft legal race than I was in a non drafting race.
I have the utmost respect for both Simon Lessing and Michelle Jones. so much in fact I actually named my daughter after Michelle. In 1992 both Simon and Michelle won the ITU World Championships in Muskoka Canada, then in 1993 Michelle won gold and Simon silver at Worlds at the last 2 World Championships that were non draft legal. They were 2 of the very few athletes who were talented enough to be successful at both draft legal and non draft legal events. Both Simon and Michelle won numerous medals at Worlds after the switch as well.
Michelle Jones and Erin Baker would in my view be the two best female athletes ever in short course racing. So no surprise to me when she was able to move up to Ironman last year.
Simon Lessing came a close second place to Mark Allen in Nice when he was in his early 20’s so also no surprise with his Lake Placid Time. Simon along with Mark Allen and Scott Molina (how can you argue with a guy who won something like 30 races in a row) have to be the best short course racers ever.
Anyone who knows anything at all about Hawaii, knows anything can happen their. I remember hearing throughout the 80’s that Mark could never win their and that sure changed in a hurry.
I was rather harsh on young Tim in order to make the point. Yes, he is a fast swimmer but he’s never leading, and yes he might be able to bike hard (however, I doubt he’d shine in a non-drafting 25 mile TT, and by that I mean sub 52 minutes) but he can still do really well and win because of his sub 30min running ability. This ties in with the other tread on Dave and Allen’s IM times. Those guys specialised in non-drafting races regardless of the distance. ITU racing has created a new bread of triathlete that - so far - doesn’t seem to be capable of putting in a strong performance in Hawaii.
SteveMc
yes, it s true…going from Itu racing to ironman, an athlete will need some transition time to get good at it. But i know one guy that come from the itu racing and give a shoot in away, he is from belgium and i think he won the race twice!!! yep… he was second the year before at itu world in cleveland…ok, peter reid…also from itu cuircut…
michellie jones
Thomas hellriegel
Kate allan
Karen smyers
Cameron brown
well…thats a pretty impressive list of good itu athlete that made it to hawaii with success,and yes…they were for most of all itu draft athlete.
and just wait for the kiwi guys to go to ironman
yep…there is a lto of good athlete on that itu draft series that are complete athlete