Is there any tri where front crawl wouldn't be the optimal swim?

Triathlon Forum
1

I found myself wondering about this question, and thought I would ask… I suspect the answer people will use is “likely no, because it hasn’t been done.” But hear me out.

Here’s the more specific framing of the question: are there any race situations where it might be better to train a leg-dominated swim (sidestroke, combat sidestroke, something else involving fish or dolphin kicking, or even a streamlined continuous flutter kick), planning to give up (possibly a lot of) time on the swim over the faster front crawl*, but recoup that on the bike and run? I’m assuming a well-trained elite athlete here, not a weak-swimming AOS for whom the answer might be trivially, “yes, because they can’t swim front crawl”.

Pros:
~90% of the time in HIM and IM triathlons is leg-and-core-based endurance work (hip muscles are critical for run and bike so I include ‘core’). Why not make it ~100% and scrap the upper body muscular deadweight entirely? This would have clear racing benefits on the run, and on the bike leg for hilly courses where body weight matters. It would also have training benefits in that there would be synergy between all three disciplines rather than tension between swim and bike/run. Finally, some alternative leg-dominated strokes (e.g., the sidestroke) would easily allow fueling during the swim; others might too. We know the front crawl does not make for easy fueling.

Cons:
-lost time on the swim*
-legs possibly already tired going into T1
-drafting likely much harder if you’re not swimming front crawl along with the rest of the leading pack

*-this assumes that crawl is in fast the fastest open-water swimming technique for humans. This might be the case, but just because we haven’t found a faster technique (or one that is leg-dominated) doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Actually, competitive swimming has identified a faster ‘stroke’ for humans than the front crawl over short distances: the underwater fish kick and underwater dolphin kick – but I have not found any evidence that people can swim this long-distance/sustained over triathlon distances (breathing issues a likely barrier… though stroke regulations in competitive swimming also likely an issue; successive bouts of underwater dolphin kick might be faster than front crawl – is anyone aware of any triathletes who have swum this way?). Humans have not evolved for swimming prowess and swimming is not a natural motion, but other aquatic mammals with four legs and most fish swim primarily with power from the rear of their bodies using their biggest muscles.

2

No, there is no tri where front crawl wouldn’t be the optimal swim.

3

No, none. Maybe for someone who was a world class breast-stroker and has some injury preventing freestyle… but otherwise that’s a NO.

For one, with proper technique, you don’t need significant arm strength to have a decent swim. I mean there are plenty of scrawny 10 year olds that can swim circles around triathletes.

  • I don’t know about other people but when I “just kick” in the pool I get exhausted. It is SO SLOW (without fins of course) and inefficient. IMO the training for the bike and run does NOT train your legs to be the primary driver in the swim.

  • Unless you are talking ultra-endurance triathlons, why do you need to fuel during the swim? Glycogen stores from the night before and the morning nutrition should be plenty to get you through even a full 2.4 mile swim.

  • You mentioning ditching muscle weight on the upper body as waste. Do you not think the torso/arms/back contribute at all to cycling and running form?

  • What tension is there between swim and bike/run training? I mean, you ARE training for a race that includes swimming, biking and running after all. I’ve always found that when I swim more, the aerobic fitness carries over big time to the other two disciplines, with the bonus of being non weight bearing to get the benefit. And its not like you could avoid the pool - you’d need to get in there and “swim?” your fancy kick stroke to practice it. Probably more time needed to do that than to just swim the traditional way.

4

If by optimal you mean fastest time based on ability (and assuming that includes the ability to swim the leg freestyle)

No

And not because it hasn’t been done

And swimming certainly involves the core as well, it’s not just arms
.

5

No, none. Maybe for someone who was a world class breast-stroker and has some injury preventing freestyle… but otherwise that’s a NO.

  • You mentioning ditching muscle weight on the upper body as waste. Do you not think the torso/arms/back contribute at all to cycling and running form?

  • What tension is there between swim and bike/run training? I mean, you ARE training for a race that includes swimming, biking and running after all. I’ve always found that when I swim more, the aerobic fitness carries over big time to the other two disciplines, with the bonus of being non weight bearing to get the benefit. And its not like you could avoid the pool - you’d need to get in there and “swim?” your fancy kick stroke to practice it. Probably more time needed to do that than to just swim the traditional way.

To these points specifically, look at professional marathon runners and cyclists. Do you see a lot of torso/arm/back muscle mass on them? I certainly don’t. Smaller shoulders could help in a big way for bike aerodynamics too, not just for climbing. (Insert Dev anecdote here about the Kenyan runners calling out the “rotating weight” on his arms…)

The tension is that swim training develops muscles that are used very little in running and cycling, whereas running and cycling muscles have much more crossover. I’m sure it’s true that you get aerobic fitness benefits from swimming that extend to the run and bike, but wouldn’t it be better if these went generally to the same transmission system that you use for propulsion in the other two disciplines, rather than to different muscles?

6

If by optimal you mean fastest time based on ability (and assuming that includes the ability to swim the leg freestyle)

No

And not because it hasn’t been done

And swimming certainly involves the core as well, it’s not just arms

What’s your specific rationale besides “it hasn’t been done?”

Sure, front crawl swimming uses the core. But it also beefs up your shoulders and lats, and that is directly antagonistic to faster running and cycling.

Suppose an elite triathlete swam the IM 10 minutes slower (a speed decrease of perhaps ~20%, allowing for a reduction in thrust power by about ~60% given the cubic scaling of hydrodynamic drag power), but they could lose 10 pounds of upper-body muscle. That 10 pounds lost might be worth 8 minutes gained on the run (at 2"/mile/pound), and could be a few minutes on the bike by either weight-climbing or CdA considerations. That’s a wash right there.

7

Sure, if the swim was through a rock garden or maybe a lake with pillars of concrete located at water level every few feet, you might want to use breast stroke to avoid bashing your head on rocks.

But, other than that, ummm, no.

8

If by optimal you mean fastest time based on ability (and assuming that includes the ability to swim the leg freestyle)

No

And not because it hasn’t been done

And swimming certainly involves the core as well, it’s not just arms

What’s your specific rationale besides “it hasn’t been done?”

Sure, front crawl swimming uses the core. But it also beefs up your shoulders and lats, and that is directly antagonistic to faster running and cycling.

Suppose an elite triathlete swam the IM 10 minutes slower (a speed decrease of perhaps ~20%, allowing for a reduction in thrust power by about ~60% given the cubic scaling of hydrodynamic drag power), but they could lose 10 pounds of upper-body muscle. That 10 pounds lost might be worth 8 minutes gained on the run (at 2"/mile/pound), and could be a few minutes on the bike by either weight-climbing or CdA considerations. That’s a wash right there.

Because if you are a competent swimmer there is no way side crawl or breaststroke (assuming average and not college level or elite breastroke) is faster than a properly executed crawl.

10 pounds? LOL

But you do seem committed to the cause. So you can try it and get back to us

9

No, none. Maybe for someone who was a world class breast-stroker and has some injury preventing freestyle… but otherwise that’s a NO.

  • You mentioning ditching muscle weight on the upper body as waste. Do you not think the torso/arms/back contribute at all to cycling and running form?

  • What tension is there between swim and bike/run training? I mean, you ARE training for a race that includes swimming, biking and running after all. I’ve always found that when I swim more, the aerobic fitness carries over big time to the other two disciplines, with the bonus of being non weight bearing to get the benefit. And its not like you could avoid the pool - you’d need to get in there and “swim?” your fancy kick stroke to practice it. Probably more time needed to do that than to just swim the traditional way.

To these points specifically, look at professional marathon runners and cyclists. Do you see a lot of torso/arm/back muscle mass on them? I certainly don’t. Smaller shoulders could help in a big way for bike aerodynamics too, not just for climbing. (Insert Dev anecdote here about the Kenyan runners calling out the “rotating weight” on his arms…)

The tension is that swim training develops muscles that are used very little in running and cycling, whereas running and cycling muscles have much more crossover. I’m sure it’s true that you get aerobic fitness benefits from swimming that extend to the run and bike, but wouldn’t it be better if these went generally to the same transmission system that you use for propulsion in the other two disciplines, rather than to different muscles?

You’re trading in minutes on the swim to gain seconds on the bike/run.

10

If by optimal you mean fastest time based on ability (and assuming that includes the ability to swim the leg freestyle)

No

And not because it hasn’t been done

And swimming certainly involves the core as well, it’s not just arms

What’s your specific rationale besides “it hasn’t been done?”

Sure, front crawl swimming uses the core. But it also beefs up your shoulders and lats, and that is directly antagonistic to faster running and cycling.

Suppose an elite triathlete swam the IM 10 minutes slower (a speed decrease of perhaps ~20%, allowing for a reduction in thrust power by about ~60% given the cubic scaling of hydrodynamic drag power), but they could lose 10 pounds of upper-body muscle. That 10 pounds lost might be worth 8 minutes gained on the run (at 2"/mile/pound), and could be a few minutes on the bike by either weight-climbing or CdA considerations. That’s a wash right there.

Because if you are a competent swimmer there is no way side crawl or breaststroke (assuming average and not college level or elite breastroke) is faster than a properly executed crawl.

Did you read my post? I’m assuming in my reply to you that time will be lost by switching away from front crawl. (In the original post, I have a digressive footnote questioning whether front crawl is truly the fastest possible OW stroke, but let’s set that question aside and assume it is fastest.)

10 pounds? LOL

What do you think a reasonable value is for this amount of muscle weight carried in the arms and upper torso for swimming front crawl, for a typical elite triathlete? Or, tell an elite triathlete that they’re now a duathlete and replace the 3.8k swim with a 15k run. How much weight would they lose?

11

I’ve wondered about back stroke, if only there was a way to sight in OWS. Able to breathe effectively and stay aerobic, almost all arms to save the legs, good swimmers can backstroke faster than I can free.

12

No, none. Maybe for someone who was a world class breast-stroker and has some injury preventing freestyle… but otherwise that’s a NO.

  • You mentioning ditching muscle weight on the upper body as waste. Do you not think the torso/arms/back contribute at all to cycling and running form?

  • What tension is there between swim and bike/run training? I mean, you ARE training for a race that includes swimming, biking and running after all. I’ve always found that when I swim more, the aerobic fitness carries over big time to the other two disciplines, with the bonus of being non weight bearing to get the benefit. And its not like you could avoid the pool - you’d need to get in there and “swim?” your fancy kick stroke to practice it. Probably more time needed to do that than to just swim the traditional way.

To these points specifically, look at professional marathon runners and cyclists. Do you see a lot of torso/arm/back muscle mass on them? I certainly don’t. Smaller shoulders could help in a big way for bike aerodynamics too, not just for climbing. (Insert Dev anecdote here about the Kenyan runners calling out the “rotating weight” on his arms…)

The tension is that swim training develops muscles that are used very little in running and cycling, whereas running and cycling muscles have much more crossover. I’m sure it’s true that you get aerobic fitness benefits from swimming that extend to the run and bike, but wouldn’t it be better if these went generally to the same transmission system that you use for propulsion in the other two disciplines, rather than to different muscles?

You’re trading in minutes on the swim to gain seconds on the bike/run.

I mean, I see that it’s a tradeoff, but is there really that little swim muscle on the arms and back of an elite triathlete? The rule of thumb is 2"/mile/pound of bodyweight above optimal for running, and it’s hard to see how triceps, delts, and lats are contributing to distance running prowess. In the marathon of an IM this would extrapolate to pounds lost meaning minutes and not just seconds faster on the run. The bike is harder to gauge, but in a climbing-heavy race, pounds lost could also mean minutes faster over the IM distance. TT cyclists also pride themselves on how small their shoulders are, just saying…

13

I’ve wondered about back stroke, if only there was a way to sight in OWS. Able to breathe effectively and stay aerobic, almost all arms to save the legs, good swimmers can backstroke faster than I can free.

I’ve seen people do backstroke in races.

14

I swam the shortened swim course for 70.3 New Orleans 2018 and had to swim breaststroke and side stroke at times for spotting as it was so choppy due to a tropical storm hitting. I saw a lot of people swim wayyy off course.

15

No, none. Maybe for someone who was a world class breast-stroker and has some injury preventing freestyle… but otherwise that’s a NO.

  • You mentioning ditching muscle weight on the upper body as waste. Do you not think the torso/arms/back contribute at all to cycling and running form?

  • What tension is there between swim and bike/run training? I mean, you ARE training for a race that includes swimming, biking and running after all. I’ve always found that when I swim more, the aerobic fitness carries over big time to the other two disciplines, with the bonus of being non weight bearing to get the benefit. And its not like you could avoid the pool - you’d need to get in there and “swim?” your fancy kick stroke to practice it. Probably more time needed to do that than to just swim the traditional way.

To these points specifically, look at professional marathon runners and cyclists. Do you see a lot of torso/arm/back muscle mass on them? I certainly don’t. Smaller shoulders could help in a big way for bike aerodynamics too, not just for climbing. (Insert Dev anecdote here about the Kenyan runners calling out the “rotating weight” on his arms…)

The tension is that swim training develops muscles that are used very little in running and cycling, whereas running and cycling muscles have much more crossover. I’m sure it’s true that you get aerobic fitness benefits from swimming that extend to the run and bike, but wouldn’t it be better if these went generally to the same transmission system that you use for propulsion in the other two disciplines, rather than to different muscles?

You’re trading in minutes on the swim to gain seconds on the bike/run.

I mean, I see that it’s a tradeoff, but is there really that little swim muscle on the arms and back of an elite triathlete? The rule of thumb is 2"/mile/pound of bodyweight above optimal for running, and it’s hard to see how triceps, delts, and lats are contributing to distance running prowess. In the marathon of an IM this would extrapolate to pounds lost meaning minutes and not just seconds faster on the run. The bike is harder to gauge, but in a climbing-heavy race, pounds lost could also mean minutes faster over the IM distance. TT cyclists also pride themselves on how small their shoulders are, just saying…

The extra upper body weight is not contributing to running in any meaningful way, it’s a big reason why pro triathletes aren’t running 2:0x in open marathons. In my opinion, the 2"/mile/pound rule of thumb is good for judging amateurs with weight to lose, but there’s a bit of correlation/causation there (amateur runners often lose weight in conjunction with training more). And at the amateur level the increase in fitness from swimming almost certainly offsets any running/cycling losses due to muscle mass.

I do agree that swimming specific muscles are probably detrimental at elite levels to running and a lesser extent cycling. But as other posters noted, the other benefit of the front crawl is you can use your legs minimally. I can’t imagine how much slower the bike/run would be if you only kicked (with or without fins) for the swim.

As with most things in high level sport, it’s really about the numbers. And the numbers for swimming anything other than front crawl just don’t add up to faster finishing times.

16

Why not make it ~100% and scrap the upper body muscular deadweight entirely? This would have clear racing benefits on the run, and on the bike leg for hilly courses where body weight matters.

Clear racing benefits? I think the reigning Olympic Gold Medalist, IRONMAN World Champion (on a hilly STG course) might prove the case for upper body muscle. Please review the last couple kilometres of Tokyo and get back to us.

17

I think the OP really ought to go do an Olympic triathlon where they are not allowed to use their arms at all in the swim. Just a side-facing kick the entire time (to allow breathing of course). Then tell us the result of how their swim fared compared to a normal swim, and how their legs felt on the bike and run.

It will quickly become apparent that the whole idea is just terrible. And we’ve all wasted precious time that we can never get back responding (LOL).

18

Why not make it ~100% and scrap the upper body muscular deadweight entirely? This would have clear racing benefits on the run, and on the bike leg for hilly courses where body weight matters.

Clear racing benefits? I think the reigning Olympic Gold Medalist, IRONMAN World Champion (on a hilly STG course) might prove the case for upper body muscle. Please review the last couple kilometres of Tokyo and get back to us.

I mean, Blu is a beast and that race was spectacular, but I think you’re fooling yourself by thinking that upper-body muscle got him that 10k win. His massive aerobic base, unique physiology, mental toughness, and white superman suit all contributed. I believe he’s said that if he was training for an open marathon (which I would love to see), he would drop the swim training but keep some cycling.

19

I think the OP really ought to go do an Olympic triathlon where they are not allowed to use their arms at all in the swim. Just a side-facing kick the entire time (to allow breathing of course). Then tell us the result of how their swim fared compared to a normal swim, and how their legs felt on the bike and run.

It will quickly become apparent that the whole idea is just terrible. And we’ve all wasted precious time that we can never get back responding (LOL).

Well, Olympic and sprint are more tilted towards swim so it’s clearly a worse idea for Oly than for IM/HIM. I would seriously consider training sidestroke and sidestroking an Oly as test of concept.

But your second statement is just rude and unappreciative of out-of-the-box thinking :wink:

20

Meh, a lot of kicking will result in plantar flexion too excessive for optimal running.