As I understand it, hook-less rims make life easier for the manufacturers. Is there any specific advantage to the consumer? I’ve read descriptions of what are purported to be consumer benefits that sound a lot like manufacturer benefits
It’s all moot to me because I don’t run tubeless on any of my bikes. I’m just trying to understand why I’m seeing it so much now. Are road cyclists out there pushing for this?
It keeps you from having to decide between so many tire choices.
As I understand it, hook-less rims make life easier for the manufacturers. Is there any specific advantage to the consumer? I’ve read descriptions of what are purported to be consumer benefits that sound a lot like manufacturer benefits
It’s all moot to me because I don’t run tubeless on any of my bikes. I’m just trying to understand why I’m seeing it so much now. Are road cyclists out there pushing for this?
there are 15 articles solely or partly on hookless rims for road tubeless posted on the front page over the last year and change. other than they’re lighter, stronger, safer and you can make the system more aero, there is no reason to get them.
Cost (which is seemingly legit based on the latest releases from Enve, Zipp)
Durability (rim should be able to handle rim strikes better)
Possible aero advantage due to more flexibility in rim-tire interface.
I haven’t gone that way yet, because I like Conti and Vittoria tires. But I imagine it’s my future.
As I understand it, hook-less rims make life easier for the manufacturers. Is there any specific advantage to the consumer? I’ve read descriptions of what are purported to be consumer benefits that sound a lot like manufacturer benefits
It’s all moot to me because I don’t run tubeless on any of my bikes. I’m just trying to understand why I’m seeing it so much now. Are road cyclists out there pushing for this?
there are 15 articles solely or partly on hookless rims for road tubeless posted on the front page over the last year and change. other than they’re lighter, stronger, safer and you can make the system more aero, there is no reason to get them.
I had read the CADEX articles. But even in those, the advantages of hookless rims sounded more like making life easier for the manufacturers than for the consumers; Carbon manufacturers don’t like to make hooked rims. It’s easier for them to make hookless ones.
OK, great for the manufacturers. And if that translates into cheaper or more aero wheels for consumers, that will be great too. Has it? Are the hookless rims out there now any measurably cheaper or more aero than the hooked ones? Is there some strength deficiency that’s been corrrected?
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
I guess it sounds like I’m a Luddite making a case against hookless rims. I’m not. I don’t even use tubeless tires but when I eventually do (as I’m told) I’m sure these rims will be wonderful. I’m just trying to understand what has driven this development. It sounds like it’s manufacturers, not consumers.
Contrast this with, say, hydraulic disc brakes or electronic shifting or tubeless tires. Nobody “needed” those either but anyone getting on a bike that has them can tell right away what they do better (in most cases) than what’s out there. So whatever got manufacturers to create them, it was consumer demand that made them widespread.
That’s what I’m really asking. Were (or are) consumers really demanding hookless rims like they did the other things? Or is this manufacturers.
As I understand it, hook-less rims make life easier for the manufacturers. Is there any specific advantage to the consumer? I’ve read descriptions of what are purported to be consumer benefits that sound a lot like manufacturer benefits
It’s all moot to me because I don’t run tubeless on any of my bikes. I’m just trying to understand why I’m seeing it so much now. Are road cyclists out there pushing for this?
there are 15 articles solely or partly on hookless rims for road tubeless posted on the front page over the last year and change. other than they’re lighter, stronger, safer and you can make the system more aero, there is no reason to get them.
I had read the CADEX articles. But even in those, the advantages of hookless rims sounded more like making life easier for the manufacturers than for the consumers; Carbon manufacturers don’t like to make hooked rims. It’s easier for them to make hookless ones.
OK, great for the manufacturers. And if that translates into cheaper or more aero wheels for consumers, that will be great too. Has it? Are the hookless rims out there now any measurably cheaper or more aero than the hooked ones? Is there some strength deficiency that’s been corrrected?
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
I guess it sounds like I’m a Luddite making a case against hookless rims. I’m not. I don’t even use tubeless tires but when I eventually do (as I’m told) I’m sure these rims will be wonderful. I’m just trying to understand what has driven this development. It sounds like it’s manufacturers, not consumers.
Contrast this with, say, hydraulic disc brakes or electronic shifting or tubeless tires. Nobody “needed” those either but anyone getting on a bike that has them can tell right away what they do better (in most cases) than what’s out there. So whatever got manufacturers to create them, it was consumer demand that made them widespread.
That’s what I’m really asking. Were (or are) consumers really demanding hookless rims like they did the other things? Or is this manufacturers.
if you make a rim with a hooked bead, you are forced into tooling and processes - such as the use of bladder - that forestalls the use of processes that can make a stronger rim wall. you can make the rim wall stronger and thicker. but you need to have a tire with a bead that’s meant to seat on the shelf of a hookless beaded rim. i think ENVE has a pretty good page on this.
i think it’s in the interests of premium brands to not make wheels like this. if you want to be jaded, and suspicious, be jaded and suspicious of brands that insist wheels must be made using a more difficult manufacturing process, which presents a barrier to entry for commodity manufacturers. this type of wheel construction makes it easier to commoditize this product category.
To me, questioning whether purported advantages are potential or realized is the difference between, “I’ll buy that now” vs “I’ll wait until I see how it goes for other people”.
If that means “jaded and suspicious”, to you… ok.
To me, questioning whether purported advantages are potential or realized is the difference between, “I’ll buy that now” vs “I’ll wait until I see how it goes for other people”.
If that means “jaded and suspicious”, to you… ok.
this is the very last gasp of the tri bike with rim brakes. you’re pretty well down to a couple of outlier brands whose new models haven’t debuted yet, and closeouts, and used bikes. not even 4 years ago i wrote here that this is what was coming, and i got all manner of pushback. “not gonna happen!” was the response, or, if it does happen the bikes will certainly be less aero. you remember those debates; you took part in them. what i tried to do then was prepare you for what was coming.
same kinda thing here. 2 years ago i told you road tubeless was coming. this year i’m reporting to you that road tubeless is shifting to hookless, and why. i know what the wheel companies are making. i’m preparing you for what you’re going to see, and i’m happy to answer any questions you want answered, but i don’t care what you buy. my job isn’t to steer you to a product.
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
Am curious to learn more about this. Can you link the article? I tried the search function, but that did not work. Thanks.
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
Am curious to learn more about this. Can you link the article? I tried the search function, but that did not work. Thanks.
rene herse was a maker of touring bikes in the middle of the last century. he died the same year i began cycling (1976). there is a company, i think, that still bears his name. to my knowledge i’ve never quoted him or anyone from that company. i do not know of anything written by anybody associated with them on hookless beads.
Dan –
My concern with some of this latest tech especially these disc brakes and now hookless rims requiring special tires and setup knowledge is that it’s all become more overly complicated to the average consumer, especially the entry-level triathlete. Prices go up, triathlon numbers go down and somethings got to give. I always thought one way that the sport could really grow was through interest people could develop in working on their own bikes. For the last few years for example GCN has hosted quite a few videos on bicycle maintenance, however with electronic shifting,disc brakes and now tubeless set ups it’s all getting quite hard for the beginner triathlete or even the MOP triathlete to deal with. Even I (with a lot of experience wrenching on bikes) have had several issues with the tubeless set up. People on my team are frustrated, and I’m far from the only one on slowtwitch that has a voiced this opinion.
I guess my thesis regarding this —and please let me know your thoughts —is that in the pre-Covid era the bike manufacturers were starting to “give up†on the low to middle range bikes. They figured the margin was much more rewarding on the 12K bikes somewhat similar to how Ford makes a killing on the $70,000 F150s and has dumped all the sedans. However I feel that approach doesn’t really help grow our sport and now in the Covid age it seems there’s a much greater demand for low end bikes. I was also hoping there would be a long term place for mid priced rim brake bikes but maybe not. Are we not afraid of scaring people off? Your thoughts?
That’s what I’m really asking. Were (or are) consumers really demanding hookless rims like they did the other things? Or is this manufacturers.
There are millions of products, past and present, that were developed by manufacturers for one reason or another, but ultimately to reduce cost or increase demand. Consumers decided whether whether the manufacturers made good decisions based on whether the product was successful. When they are successful, consumers demand them. And the better they are the product ultimately becomes a necessity. Consumers were not demanding or even thinking about something like an iPhone 1.
So, I think I understand what you’re asking. I just don’t understand why you’re asking it.
Dan –
My concern with some of this latest tech especially these disc brakes and now hookless rims requiring special tires and setup knowledge is that it’s all become more overly complicated to the average consumer, especially the entry-level triathlete. Prices go up, triathlon numbers go down and somethings got to give. I always thought one way that the sport could really grow was through interest people could develop in working on their own bikes. For the last few years for example GCN has hosted quite a few videos on bicycle maintenance, however with electronic shifting,disc brakes and now tubeless set ups it’s all getting quite hard for the beginner triathlete or even the MOP triathlete to deal with. Even I (with a lot of experience wrenching on bikes) have had several issues with the tubeless set up. People on my team are frustrated, and I’m far from the only one on slowtwitch that has a voiced this opinion.
I guess my thesis regarding this —and please let me know your thoughts —is that in the pre-Covid era the bike manufacturers were starting to “give up†on the low to middle range bikes. They figured the margin was much more rewarding on the 12K bikes somewhat similar to how Ford makes a killing on the $70,000 F150s and has dumped all the sedans. However I feel that approach doesn’t really help grow our sport and now in the Covid age it seems there’s a much greater demand for low end bikes. I was also hoping there would be a long term place for mid priced rim brake bikes but maybe not. Are we not afraid of scaring people off? Your thoughts?
you’re dead right. i’m nearing the end of an article right now that’s about the affordable tri bikes currently on the market. because, when they’re gone they’re gone, and for most premium brands “entry level” in tri bikes is in the mid-$3000s, which isn’t very entry level.
further, the tech is not easy. we’re shortly to write up a hydraulic quick-connect we found, and this should be standard on all bikes that require a rerouting/bleeding of hydro lines just to (say) change a stem. we have a sort of 2-prong approach: 1) to tell you all what’s coming; 2) to bitch to the brands about stuff that’s too expensive or too hard to work on.
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
Am curious to learn more about this. Can you link the article? I tried the search function, but that did not work. Thanks.
rene herse was a maker of touring bikes in the middle of the last century. he died the same year i began cycling (1976). there is a company, i think, that still bears his name. to my knowledge i’ve never quoted him or anyone from that company. i do not know of anything written by anybody associated with them on hookless beads.
Got it, but I just found this in one of the articles on the main ST site:
"Given all of the safety concerns, why bother making a rim hookless? We borrowed this quote from the blog of Rene Herse Cycles (formerly Compass Cycles – a manufacturer of high-end tires): “The hook has a crucial function in keeping the tire on the rim. Other rim and tire makers have tested and found the same: The hook significantly increases the pressure at which the tire safely stays on the rim… Why ? Mostly because the hook is difficult to make with carbon fiber: It requires a complex 3-piece mold for the rim bed.â€
But weirdly, the blog link is dead. I wonder why the blog post was pulled down by Rene Herse Cycles …
Thanks Dan, I suppose in a way my post was a plea for some advocacy on your part. I’m glad to hear it’s already in the works!
To me, questioning whether purported advantages are potential or realized is the difference between, “I’ll buy that now” vs “I’ll wait until I see how it goes for other people”.
If that means “jaded and suspicious”, to you… ok.
this is the very last gasp of the tri bike with rim brakes. you’re pretty well down to a couple of outlier brands whose new models haven’t debuted yet, and closeouts, and used bikes. not even 4 years ago i wrote here that this is what was coming, and i got all manner of pushback. “not gonna happen!” was the response, or, if it does happen the bikes will certainly be less aero. you remember those debates; you took part in them. what i tried to do then was prepare you for what was coming.
same kinda thing here. 2 years ago i told you road tubeless was coming. this year i’m reporting to you that road tubeless is shifting to hookless, and why. i know what the wheel companies are making. i’m preparing you for what you’re going to see, and i’m happy to answer any questions you want answered, but i don’t care what you buy. my job isn’t to steer you to a product.
I did take part in those debates. At no point ever did I say anything like “not gonna happen” It was obvious these were all the future. That doesn’t mean I want to be the guinea pig.
For example, I wasn’t going to complicate my maintenance and expenses with disc brakes until I didn’t have a choice. I didn’t need them. I still don’t. But you’re right: We are reaching that outlier territory. My choices now are disc brakes or obsolescence. So I am getting them on my next bike. Because I have to.
Without an advantage that I feel is worth the money and experimentation, I’m not an early adopter of these things. My decision to be cautious says absolutely nothing about your prognostication. Please stop taking this personally.
What’s more, the “safer” claim seems questionable. Even your own article quotes Rene Herse who says the opposite.
Am curious to learn more about this. Can you link the article? I tried the search function, but that did not work. Thanks.
rene herse was a maker of touring bikes in the middle of the last century. he died the same year i began cycling (1976). there is a company, i think, that still bears his name. to my knowledge i’ve never quoted him or anyone from that company. i do not know of anything written by anybody associated with them on hookless beads.
Got it, but I just found this in one of the articles on the main ST site:
"Given all of the safety concerns, why bother making a rim hookless? We borrowed this quote from the blog of Rene Herse Cycles (formerly Compass Cycles – a manufacturer of high-end tires): “The hook has a crucial function in keeping the tire on the rim. Other rim and tire makers have tested and found the same: The hook significantly increases the pressure at which the tire safely stays on the rim… Why ? Mostly because the hook is difficult to make with carbon fiber: It requires a complex 3-piece mold for the rim bed.â€
But weirdly, the blog link is dead. I wonder why the blog post was pulled down by Rene Herse Cycles …
ah. well. i suspect that’s probably an article written by greg kopecky? i will give you my answer to this, which i wrote in my latest article on this subject. this quote would have been true - was true - prior to the advent of wider internal bead diameters. only 5 years ago a typical internal bead width was 15mm. now it’s 21mm and up, and this is for road. zipp’s new 303 series have 23mm internal bead widths, replacing 19mm in the prior edition of the 303 firecrest.
once you move to an internal volume this great - with a wide bead width, deep well, and wide tire, this greatly lowers the tire pressures needed. this opens the door to hookless, which is a better tech, and you don’t need bead hooks if you’re riding 75psi. it’s just not a better tech if you still want to run 130psi in your tires.
As I understand it, hook-less rims make life easier for the manufacturers. Is there any specific advantage to the consumer? I’ve read descriptions of what are purported to be consumer benefits that sound a lot like manufacturer benefits
It’s all moot to me because I don’t run tubeless on any of my bikes. I’m just trying to understand why I’m seeing it so much now. Are road cyclists out there pushing for this?
You will think you are faster, since you spent the money. You can rest assured you are cutting edge technology-wise.
Compared to hooked clincher tires: Safety or general riding experience? No
Compared to hooked tubeless: Maybe more user friendly,
IF manufacturers can provide a consistent high quality product (which from looking at other bike tech and consumer products in general, seems doubtful).
To me, questioning whether purported advantages are potential or realized is the difference between, “I’ll buy that now” vs “I’ll wait until I see how it goes for other people”.
If that means “jaded and suspicious”, to you… ok.
this is the very last gasp of the tri bike with rim brakes. you’re pretty well down to a couple of outlier brands whose new models haven’t debuted yet, and closeouts, and used bikes. not even 4 years ago i wrote here that this is what was coming, and i got all manner of pushback. “not gonna happen!” was the response, or, if it does happen the bikes will certainly be less aero. you remember those debates; you took part in them. what i tried to do then was prepare you for what was coming.
same kinda thing here. 2 years ago i told you road tubeless was coming. this year i’m reporting to you that road tubeless is shifting to hookless, and why. i know what the wheel companies are making. i’m preparing you for what you’re going to see, and i’m happy to answer any questions you want answered, but i don’t care what you buy. my job isn’t to steer you to a product.
I did take part in those debates. At no point ever did I say anything like “not gonna happen” It was obvious these were all the future. That doesn’t mean I want to be the guinea pig.
For example, I wasn’t going to complicate my maintenance and expenses with disc brakes until I didn’t have a choice. I didn’t need them. I still don’t. But you’re right: We are reaching that outlier territory. My choices now are disc brakes or obsolescence. So I am getting them on my next bike. Because I have to.
Without an advantage that I feel is worth the money and experimentation, I’m not an early adopter of these things. My decision to be cautious says absolutely nothing about your prognostication. Please stop taking this personally.
i don’t mind your choice, and i’m not taking it personally. i’m answering the same way now that i answer every time the issue of a new tech comes up. you are certainly not the aggravator in these discussions (you never are). but one always must roll the ball up the hill on new tech, and sometimes that new tech doesn’t pan out. there’s plenty of new tech i’m not a fan of. for example, i’m not a fan of integrated front ends in road bikes, where the stem/bar is all one big hunk of carbon. i don’t get behind that tech, and i don’t get in front of it, because i’m not convinced it’s good and i’m not convinced it’s here to stay, even tho most of our advertisers sell a bike made with that sort of tech.
Saying it’s coming and saying it’s better are two very different points. The benefits you mention are just theoretical while current limitations are real. Until it matures or becomes the only option (as with disc now, which has more obvious benefits), there’s no practical reason to switch.
Given that open mold hooked rims are $100, I’d say the threat of commoditizarion won’t change, either. Consumers are unlikely to see a real price difference from the big name brands anyway. A high end wheel like Cadex will be priced like a hooked NSW while low end wheels like 303s will be priced like hooked Flos. The hook might make a $25 difference which we won’t notice.