Is Pro Triathlon Deeper than Pro Downhill Skiing or XC skiing?

Triathlon Forum
1

Just watching some FIS World Cup downhill skiing. Watching these guys and girls ski, they are all basically from a very small subset of countries. Generally rich countries, with mountains and snow. That cut’s it down to barely 10-15 countries. Same deal for Nordic Skiing. Basically the top athletes are coming from only a few countries.

It seems triathlon should have more participants globally than these sports and potentially pulling from a wider gene pool. On the other hand, you need places with access to clean water and decent roads.

I’d be curious to hear the views of some of you guys. I would say in my community in a cold “rich” country with snow, there are way more people who race triathlon than those who compete in XC skiing or downhill. There may be more who “do” those activities, but maybe not. I don’t really have the numbers.

WTC’s global expansion is “case in point” of how widespread our sport is and I THINK there are probably more RACERS globally than in some of the snow sports. Bjorn Anderson and I had a discussion along these lines a few years ago. Bjorn is from a country where nordic skiing is massive and he was adamant that triathlon is way bigger globally. I tend to agree.

What do you guys think?

2

I think you have ran out of subjects???

Sleep on it and come back, you’ll do better next time.

3

Depth of field is a function of not just volume of participants but the concentration of them and access to competition I’d have thought. So I’m going with the idea that the the depth of competition in the Alps for skiing is greater than the depth across France as the depth of triathletes in Boulder is greater than that across the US. I’d hazard a guess that to be in the top 10 in either is equally difficult but the barriers to calling yourself a pro in tri are lower than skiing.

the FIS WC season for GS is something like 45 / 46 races from Mid Nov to Mid March with 4 days off for Xmas. Every weekend you go head to head with the best in your field. Triathlon outside of ITU does that once per year in HA

the WC, the europacup are similar to the PGA and Challenge tours, or the premiership and subsequent lower divisions whereas tri has nothing like that

Appreciating that its impossible to rock up week after week and face down your competition in long distance trio’s impacts that depth of fields and competition but it could be achieved in a more structured way across the half distance.

Its comparing apples and oranges, there are barriers to entry in both tri and skiing but the national and international structures for skiing I think lend themselves to a greater depth of field with smaller populations than tri

4

I’ve often said that the world’s best ski jumper has never even been on skis, let alone jumped. I think the same applies to alpine ski racing. Even for those who have skied and are great, very few try racing. The economic, geographic, and “are you f’ing crazy” barriers to entry are huge.

I think that sprinting and soccer are the two sports where essentially everyone in the world has tried it. Distance running is a distant second as many people with the aptitude probably haven’t given the training a serious effort.

5

My experience performing in both xc skiing and tri as an amateur that the former is much more competitive. Agree its fewer people but those mountain guys and Skandinavians are in extremely good shape.

Percentile-wise Tri seems to be much less difficult to end up in top spots. In Ironmans I tend to end up top 50 overall despite being a bad swimmer and and average biker. Something I would not achieve in big XC races despite having spent some serious time getting in shape. For Tri on the other hand it seems that 3 months of focused training porting the XC fitness does the job.

But maybe its just me and I am a really bad skier :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Cheers
Roberto

6

I think I agree with you as well. I suspect participation is getting close between the two even among amateurs. Actually I wouldn’t be surprised if globally, triathlon is ahead in numbers. I think you could argue that Triathlon has a deeper field than golf possibly. I know that every high school and college I’ve lived has had bigger swim and track & field and cross country teams than golf teams.

The difference is promotion, sponsorship and TV coverage. Skiing is a 1 minute race that’s exciting but easy to watch. Then again golf is a terrible spectator sport. 3 day event spread over a whole afternoon… and we think Kona is long and boring? But they’ve made it work.

I think many have said it before, in the right format, triathlon could be exciting to watch. One thing that hurts triathlon, is that participants are too busy racing and training to watch the races on TV.

7

Though it is a real interesting question, I think you can’t really compare it. Triathlon is all about competing and achieving something (ranking or at least finishing). Everyone who says he doe’s Tri’s will compete, at least every once in a while.
Professional skiing is all about competition as well, but for the ordinary Folks who ski it isnt. It’s just about fun.

I’m from Switzerland and over here, Skiing is what swimming is for Australians. In rural areas, each kid learns how to ski in school. And lot’s of people enjoy it on Weekends. Races, though, are just for a small amount of People. Usually for Kids trying to become Pro. There are some Master Races as well, but these are mostly for former Pro aspirants. No one without a proper ski background would really take part or stand a chance to finish in respectable time.
So these whole AG thing (what I really appreciate in Triathlon) is missing in Skiing. It’s like when there was just the ITU and every Tri kid would be working towards that.

I myself spent my whole childhood in a ski team. The Training was hard and intense. But when you, like myself, don’t make it to the top, you stop competing by the age of 15. You will continue to ski, but just for fun and search another sport to satisfy your hunger for competition. Like running or Triathlon.

8

I’ve often said that the world’s best ski jumper has never even been on skis, let alone jumped. I think the same applies to alpine ski racing. Even for those who have skied and are great, very few try racing. The economic, geographic, and “are you f’ing crazy” barriers to entry are huge.

I think that sprinting and soccer are the two sports where essentially everyone in the world has tried it. Distance running is a distant second as many people with the aptitude probably haven’t given the training a serious effort.

I think the best downhill skier we have never seen may be a free safety in the NFL or a decathlete who never went near skis. It is a very limited genetic pool feeding alpine skiing which requires some endurancem but mainly fast twitch reaction time, balance and spatial awareness. Top xc skiers are a bit taller than ironman pros but have bigger upper bodies and need more fast twitch. There areprobably a ton of NCAA caliber basketball player at the short end of the scale with the right tools who have never been on skis…just a few thoughts

9

I’ve often said that the world’s best ski jumper has never even been on skis, let alone jumped. I think the same applies to alpine ski racing. Even for those who have skied and are great, very few try racing. The economic, geographic, and “are you f’ing crazy” barriers to entry are huge.

I think that sprinting and soccer are the two sports where essentially everyone in the world has tried it. Distance running is a distant second as many people with the aptitude probably haven’t given the training a serious effort.

Related to this point, a large part of the world has run sprint and some long distance and a lot of the world has ridden a bike. Probably the best triathlete who will never compete never even had access to a pool. All the sports I brought up are basically only done by affluent countries, but I think triathlon has a wider net of people to draw from globally (it’s not like you can run a ski race in Bahrain or Categena but WTC can) and even if it has not surpassed these sports in depth of competition, it will or already has surpassed them in overall athletes registering in competitions and the pro fields should be deeper at some point if not already. I’d contend that the ITU world cups are just as deep as FIS downwhill or GS or any FIS Nordic competition.

10

I would agree Dev.
I’ve raced both sports, starting as a Nordic skier. From my experience the fields in all aspects are deeper in triathlon. That is not to say the skiers are lesser athletes, I’d say quite the opposite. As far as aerobic animals go, even the top pros in triathlon have nothing on the skiers. Can’t say anything about the downhillers though, no experience racing there. But in skiing in the US, the Birkie is the largest race. How many Ironman races are there with numbers in the thousands? Even local races…it isn’t hard to find a race over a thousand. Now take skiing (Nordic)…lucky if you can find a race over 300 anywhere, unless it is a really “big deal” like a marathon (Birkie) or a regional or the national championship–even then…rare to hit those numbers. Top guys in those are often college racers and a few National Team boys & girls.

11

My point poorly explained was I think DH skiing fields are a result of a greater depth of a smaller population where as tri is less depth of a greater pop

If you took certain parts of Austria, France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy and parts of north America and Scandinavia almost 100%of kids are directed through ski school from a young age. Attrition and performance thin the herd but tri has nothing like obtaining that depth of any population

Most triathletes at least in the first instance were something else first, usually a swimmer. It’s also reasonably fair to say that had they been as good at their primary sport they may not have pursued tri

12

Triathlon is much deeper for the simple reason that almost every triathlete competes in races whereas a tiny percentage of skiers compete in alpine races. Many great skiers don’t race, but I doubt many of the best triathletes in the world don’t race. Indeed, triathlon as a sport hardly exists outside of the race context. How many people do an uninterrupted SBR just for the heck of it, and not as part of a race or training for a race?

13

My point poorly explained was I think DH skiing fields are a result of a greater depth of a smaller population where as tri is less depth of a greater pop

If you took certain parts of Austria, France, Switzerland, Germany, Italy and parts of north America and Scandinavia almost 100%of kids are directed through ski school from a young age. Attrition and performance thin the herd but tri has nothing like obtaining that depth of any population

Most triathletes at least in the first instance were something else first, usually a swimmer. It’s also reasonably fair to say that had they been as good at their primary sport they may not have pursued tri

To the point in bold, maybe FIS federations do a better job grooming talent based on the input population that they have, but I am not so certain that is the case. If I put all the kids playing free safety in Div 1 NCAA college football on downhill skis since they were 5 years old, perhaps the level of competition is way higher at FIS downhill. I am guessing that triathlon is pulling from a wider gene pool to start off than FIS downhill events and Nordic events.

Also on the point of triathletes coming from running or swim background is a good one, but keep in mind that to be elite in running you basically have to be sub 130 lbs or lower for the men and for swimming most elite swimmers are 3-6 inches taller than pro long course athletes and probably 30-50 lbs heavier. The kids who become pro triathletes, are too big to be top notch distance runners and too small to be elite swimmers (some exceptions like Potts or Sheila Tormina), but some of the triathlon pros might have just as big engines and good genetics, just the wrong body size to be elite in swim or run, but for triathlon they are perfect build.

On the Nordic front, here in Canada, I would guestimate that the best Nordic talent never got on skis in the first place and are over playing ice hockey, simply because we see the best youth athletes getting sucked into that sport. In Norway you become a skier. In Spain you go for soccer. In South Africa, you probably go for Rugby or Cricket.

14

Triathlon is much deeper for the simple reason that almost every triathlete competes in races whereas a tiny percentage of skiers compete in alpine races. Many great skiers don’t race, but I doubt many of the best triathletes in the world don’t race. Indeed, triathlon as a sport hardly exists outside of the race context. How many people do an uninterrupted SBR just for the heck of it, and not as part of a race or training for a race?

Well, actually Dev is only comparing PRO tri-guys vs PRO alpine skiers.

Dev - I think the point made by others that alpine skiing already encompasses almost the whole population of Nordic countries is why the top pro alpine skiers are prob a notch above the top pro tri-guys. Certainly, if the entire world’s population were screened for skiing ability, you would prob have 10 or 15 Lindsey Vonn equivalents, instead of just one. Further, the Lindsey Vonn/Tiger Woods tabloid affair is perhaps the best evidence that pro alpine skiers are in a diff league, since no pro tri-girls are palling around with Tiger or an equivalent male from another headline sport, like Roger Federer or similar:)

There was a similar tangential discussion on another thread regarding swimming vs running, and I believe it was STP who made the argument that, while certainly more kids have the option of taking up running as a sport, the number who do pursue it seriously is lower in many developed countries than the number who swim seriously. He argued that, b/c there is a population of somewhere around 2 million age group/summer swimmers in the U.S. alone, and prob another 8 mill or so in other developed countries, this 10 mill or so is a pretty big genetic pool. Also, there is a tendency of among top swimmers to inter-breed: BOTH of the parents of new American 1000-yd record holder Clark Smith swam in the '84 Trials, and his Mom finished 5th in the 200 back in the '84 Games. And of course, Gary Hall Sr and his offspring have done pretty well also:)

15

Myabe if you put more 5 year olds on ski’s you find better skiers, but I think its pretty well evidenced, that the best are not simply a result of the most “talented” or “genetically gifted” but a result of a whole range of more complex factors.

I went to Uni with a Preston North End youth player and a “class of 92” Utd youth player, neither made it, though one of them played first team football for utd with Beckham, Scholes, the Nevils, Giggs etc

Football is pretty good at scouting talent, from a young age which is why you have kids from all countries signed up to Premiership, La Liga, Serie A clubs but once those kids are in the program its not just talent or the exposure that allows them to be selected, its a relentless work ethic.

I’ll preface what I’m about to say by stating I hate football / soccer, but the most amazing thing about the class of 92 kids and I saw them play half a dozen times a year from 92-96 when I was at university in manchester was the longevity of their respective careers. They kicked footballs on a daily basis probably from the time they were 3-4 to their mid to late 30’s - all of them.

Skiers have the same thing, its just a much smaller population. Triathlon doesn’t have anything like it for identifying the real depth of talent because no 3-4 year old is being put intentionally in to a swim bike run program from toddler-hood (except for mine who are currently on a swim bike run program at 2 - I insist they both do every thing quicker all the time :))

Triathlon is made up of a population that is a mile wide, an inch deep and yes they all race, but they all have arrived at the racing stage long after they were demonstrably not successful, or not suited to other sports. (Edit - some triathletes were / are amazing single sport athletes, but have realised they’re a better triathlete than single sport - so who wouldn’t want to win more)

Soccer has a massive adult continuing participation in pub leagues, 5 aside and social leagues many of whom just like to play, its not all competitive, obviously they’re matches but as soon as its done everyones off down the pub, golf is the same, skiing is a social activity for most as most “skiers” are vacation skiers and don’t have access to facilities to enable them to pursue it as a sport. Triathlon for many is similar, yes its a timed event, and yes you finish with a position relative to others, and yes your time may be important to you, but a whole bunch of people finishing in 10, 11, 12 or whatever hours hardly indicates that the sport is deeper in any meaningful way, it just indicates that there’s a bunch of people that like events that require swimming, biking and running and timed triathlon events are the only ones out there, so its inevitable that people are viewed as competing. If the only type of skiing available involved going down hill and being timed, I’m guessing people would still go because they like going downhill on skis, being timed would be a secondary consideration to the participation and enjoyment.

So now being interested in this, I’ve looked at some numbers: (https://www.skistar.com/en/Corporate/About-SkiStar/Our-industry/The-global-alpine-market/)

“People practice alpine skiing on every continent. Around 2,100 ski resorts have been identified around the world. The annual number of skier days has remained relatively stable, at around 400 million.”

We know that these are almost 100% social skiers, given racing is such a tiny fraction of skiing as a whole, but is tri really significantly different, is running? do we really think that the 4-5 hour marathoner is adding to the depth of field at the pointy end or overall?

I’d argue that the depth of field of a marathon might be 2-2.35, certainly those finishing in 2.35 aren’t feeling better about themselves because 15k people finished between 4 and 5 hours, in fact I’d almost guarantee that they don’t think they’re even participating in the same event.

When I finished IM france the winner was showered, changed, had a beer, meal and was probably in the lounge at Nice airport, I’m not sure that my own participation did anything to the “depth of field” and I didn’t in fact do it “to race” I did it because I like the event, the same way I’d like to to UTMB, Norseman, Celtman and Embrunman - they’re interesting events that happen to be timed

The skiing data thing is fascinating:

http://www.isiaski.org/download/20140517_ISIA_Vuokatti_1b_presentation_vanat.pdf

400 million days2000 resorts5-6000k ski areas80 countries6 million commercial beds in mountains for skiing purposes
I’d be really interested to see comparable tri data

16

IMO, cross country skiing is WAY deeper and there is a crazy pool to draw from in many countries.

17

Triathlon is mostly an activity people start with as adults, while skiing is something you start with as a kid.
I do not of many triathlons with big group of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 , 14 , 14 etc years old competing. But you will find that every weekend in skiing.

50% of Norway’s population will go skiing during the winter http://www.aftenposten.no/100Sport/sprek/Over-halvparten-av-alle-nordmenn-skal-pa-ski-denne-vinteren-493657_1.snd
I have not found an accurate number of how many of those that will participate in a competition.

Should many more do triathlon. Yes. You do not a lot of equipment to do triathlon if you live in a warm country.
But as we can see, triathlon is an expensive sport. That will create a barrier for entry.

18

Triathlon is mostly an activity people start with as adults, while skiing is something you start with as a kid.
I do not of many triathlons with big group of 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 , 14 , 14 etc years old competing. But you will find that every weekend in skiing.

50% of Norway’s population will go skiing during the winter http://www.aftenposten.no/...interen-493657_1.snd
I have not found an accurate number of how many of those that will participate in a competition.

Should many more do triathlon. Yes. You do not a lot of equipment to do triathlon if you live in a warm country.
But as we can see, triathlon is an expensive sport. That will create a barrier for entry.

I think in some countries such as Norway you truly get the best of the gene pool going into Nordic. In most countries this is not the case so if you multiply the “most countries” scenario, it is becomes a question of math that Nordic skiing does not pull from the best global gene pool even though it might in countries like Norway, Sweden or Finland (we could debate in Sweden it is not pulling from the the best as they also divert many top athletes to ice hockey and soccer).

Triathlon is done at quite a grassroot level with kids in many countries. Canada, UK, Australia, Germany, Japan, USA, NZ come to mind (probably many more) gearing them towards the competitive track. Here in my community in Canada we have just as many kids in tri clubs and tri races as in Nordic races. On a plus note Nordic skiing is a high school sport (I coached there) whereas triathlon is not. Track and XC running are. Swimming and triathlon for kids is done at the club level which is anyway much higher caliber than school teams (In Canada, anyone who is serious about sport has to get good through the club system).

But what about countries like Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa etc etc…countries without snow can field very pointy end ITU racers but they basically don’t field any nordic athletes. That’s why I think that although a handful of countries have a very deep gene pool for nordic, when you look at the global scene, triathlon will be much deeper given that most of these countries have just as strong youth development programs as many have for nordic skiing (the Nordic nations aside).

Dev

19

But what about countries like Spain, Portugal, Argentina, Brazil, South Africa etc etc…countries without snow can field very pointy end ITU racers but they basically don’t field any nordic athletes. That’s why I think that although a handful of countries have a very deep gene pool for nordic, when you look at the global scene, triathlon will be much deeper given that most of these countries have just as strong youth development programs as many have for nordic skiing (the Nordic nations aside).

Dev

It doesn’t snow in the Pyranees or Andes? It’s as much cultural as it is geographical, I think.

20

There are lots of factors contributing to participation in a sport.

Except for the Jamacian Bobsled team, you pretty much need to have snow near you to be able to ski. Even if you have snow available, you need to have enough money to actually participate in the sport. Not to mention have the desire to do it.

Then for a sport to grow, you have to have enough people doing it that the base of the pyramid of participants will support more people at the top.

Skiing is limited by climate and geography first, then by income, followed by desire.

You can do triathlon in a lot more places than skiing. Both sports are similarly expensive so get rid of that as a factor really. Desire. With skiing, you ski and that’s about it. Triathlon however, you can be a ‘cyclist’ and dabble in tri. Same for running and a little bit with swimming. Tri will naturally have greater potential for grown because of geography and feeder sports.

Plus many people incorrectly think that you’ll be cold with skiing. I was a pro skier for 10 years, and have skied just about every season for the past 50 years. I have never been as cold skiing (even with temps around -40) as I have been on long bike rides in the New Zealand winter, with temperatures around 10degC. Perception of cold limits people who will ski.

Remember too, that triathletes are only triathletes when they race. Skiers can ski without racing. Around the world, most skiers have never even attempted to run gates, but they are still skiers. There are a huge number of skiers, but waaaaay fewer ski racers.

The one thing I regret about my skiing days was that I got into freestyle skiing (moguls and aerials are fun but…) instead of racing. In hind sight, I would have loved to have got into downhill or super G racing. That looks like a true blast! I was shit the few times I did slalom or GS and had several injury accidents and that scared me off racing.