Is hoka legit or a fad?

Triathlon Forum
81

We had a Hoka rep show up to our running group last week so got to talk to her as well as run with the new Arahi. I am a huge fan of the Clifton 2 but the 3’s upper felt tight/constrictive. I tried to go back to the Altra Torin 2.5 but, alas, my achilles issues came back (guess I am 4mm drop guy). She said she was able to run in the new Clifton 4 (available in early July) and the upper is more like the Arahi. BTW - I loved the Arahi so much I bought a pair, even though they are technically a “stability” shoe and I generally run in a neutral shoe.

As an aside…i live in my Hoka recovery slides. If you haven’t tried those yet…even if you are not a fan of Hoka, would absolutely love the cushion after a workout. Just allows your legs, especially calves, to relax. Big thumbs up

82

I was wearing Brooks Launch (which I loved) but switched to Hoka 2 years ago when I was dx with a heel spur as my podiatrist recommended additional cushioning. I started with the Clifton 2 which I really liked, didn’t like the 3’s but was able to find some more 2’s on clearance. I were the Clifton’s for most of my training except speed and the Clayton’s for speed/racing. I also use the Pinnacle Powerstep inserts in both. I think the Clifton and Clayton fit fairly similar with the Clayton having a little more road feel. I like but don’t love the Hoka’s but they have allowed me to run pain free.

83

After reading this post, I just bought a pair to try. I prefer to run in a more minimal shoe (1500, Fastwitch)…and always thought I would never like Herman Munster looking running shoes. I told the lady at the store that I will likely be using the 60 day return policy (I have only done this once before). I ran in them (Clifton 3) today. I really like them!!! I was really surprised. There was extreme cushioning, but there was also some responsiveness…not much, but I figured there would be none. I usually buy a shoe with a little posting and these are Neutral…but they actually feel like there is a little stability…I would think this would drive a true neutral runner nuts. They suck on slick surfaces.

I think my legs may have been taking an unnecessary beating over the years…I am switching to these for longer training runs.

Regarding whether or not they are a fad: I think the fad part is the stack height. I would think that technology would allow the shoe to advance with the same feel, and not be so tall. Also, I have never ran in other cushioned shoes, so perhaps these don’t feel different than other cushioned models.

84

I’m sure someone from Hoka is reading this and agreeing with my statement.

i’m not sure anyone at hoka is reading this. the hoka i knew is gone. now it’s the hoka i don’t know. this doesn’t mean they no longer make great shoes (i still wear them daily). but predicting where hoka will go is now no longer anything i’m comfortable doing.

i have no confidence anyone in management at hoka understands the brand they own and manage. i would love to have that confidence.

85

I’m sure someone from Hoka is reading this and agreeing with my statement.

i’m not sure anyone at hoka is reading this. the hoka i knew is gone. now it’s the hoka i don’t know. this doesn’t mean they no longer make great shoes (i still wear them daily). but predicting where hoka will go is now no longer anything i’m comfortable doing.

i have no confidence anyone in management at hoka understands the brand they own and manage. i would love to have that confidence.

Does this mean that you have had contact with the new Hoka management or is this just your feeling based upon the shoes that they have launched?

86

Does this mean that you have had contact with the new Hoka management or is this just your feeling based upon the shoes that they have launched?

i tried and failed (on a number of occasions) to have contact with the current management. hence my saying i have no real idea where the company is going.

as for the shoes they’re currently selling, i don’t know. i assume they’re good. great. world leading. as they have been. but i just don’t know.

87

I was a long time Asics Nimbus user, but the 18’s destroyed my feet and lead to a brand new knee problem last year. I tried the Hoka Vanquish 2’s and am experiencing serious achilles pain. I’m guessing its due to the change from 10mm drop to 5mm drop. I am not sure what to do now as I can barely run and IMWI is on the horizon!!!

88

From what I understand the vanquish has a a little extra shoe on the latteral side for stability and ankle problems are common in this shoe- what about the Bondi if your sticking with hokas? Clifton for something a little ‘less’?

89

I’m sure someone from Hoka is reading this and agreeing with my statement.

i’m not sure anyone at hoka is reading this. the hoka i knew is gone. now it’s the hoka i don’t know. this doesn’t mean they no longer make great shoes (i still wear them daily). but predicting where hoka will go is now no longer anything i’m comfortable doing.

i have no confidence anyone in management at hoka understands the brand they own and manage. i would love to have that confidence.

My recent Hoka purchases have been very hit or miss. The early Bondis were great but my Bondi 4s suck, they’re just heavy and slow with no rebound. I know it’s not just me as I have a pair of the older ones that I still wear around town and even worn out the feel is way better. The Cliftons have been variable, I really liked the 1, the 2 had an overly high instep that contributed to an injury, the 3s have a better fit but just seem slower to me. And the excessive proliferation of models suggests management is just trying to cash in without really leveraging their loyalty.

90

Thanks for the suggestions–I’m headed in to the doc and for new shoes today in an effort to try and find some relief for the achilles problem. Definitely moving on from the Vanquish 2’s.

91

Thanks for the suggestions–I’m headed in to the doc and for new shoes today in an effort to try and find some relief for the achilles problem. Definitely moving on from the Vanquish 2’s.

FWIW, your Doc will probably prescribe something with even more support and orthotics. You may want to consider going the complete opposite and letting your foot regain it’s mobility.
I read Kelly Starret’s book “Ready to Run” and his comments on shoes really resonated with me.
https://www.amazon.com/Ready-Run-Unlocking-Potential-Naturally/dp/1628600098

I found the biggest relief for my (chronic) Achilles problem was to stop wearing shoes with a lot of support. I had been wearing Salomon Speedcross for the past 15 years as my casual work shoes. Essentially, I was wearing a 10mm high heel every day and then running in 10mm Nike Pegasus. As a result my Achilles was never allowed to stretch out. I tried the Altra Escalante (zero drop). They are amazing. Feet feel great and my Achilles feels much better and it’s now not as thick as it used to be. I use the Altra’s as every day shoes. Went back to running in the Pegasus and they felt strange because of the exaggerated lift. So I tried Altra Torins (all Altras are zero drop). They were good for helping me to recover from the injury but I found them sluggish. I’ve now compromised on a 4mm drop shoe–the Saucony Free. Awesome shoe that has nearly as much cushion as a Hoka but way more responsive.

Caveat: if you do decide to go to a zero drop shoe it will take some time to adapt; 4-6 weeks.

92

Thanks for your detailed reply! I have also read Starrett’s stuff and am interested in Altra shoes. However, my hesitation is that I had been wearing about 3mm drop shoes to work for many months. The Vanquish is a 5mm drop, so I’m not sure if that’s the problem.

I’m 39 and about 215ish (usually dropping to 200-205 for IM races), so I was beginning to chalk it up to size and age. I really wanted to like the Hokas, but will look to move on now.

Thanks again twain for your input!

93

There are other primary reasons for Achilles pain - primarily muscle imbalance and glutes not firing correctly. It would be sweet if you could get the doc to prescribe some PT with a trainer who really knows what they are doing. That and get a massage.
I also use Arnica cream on my Achilles; it does provide some relief.

Those Escalantes are seriously amazing as well (though a bit hideous). To reiterate I don’t run in them just use as casual shoes.

94

hmmm, it might be a fad, better wait another 4 years to see if it sticks

I cannot put my foot into a Hoka. It looks like the antithesis of natural foot motion.

I also see several models of Hoka on sale from previous years. Newton had the same pattern of lots of models left unsold as it circled the drain. Can you find a size 9-12 in an Asics Nimbus from last year?

Therefore I say that Hoka is a fad.

Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with Hoka, nor Asics.

95

To answer your question, though, I think they are legit. Just not for me.

I love this response. It’s always seemed strange to me that not only on SlowTwitch, but more commonly here, there’s a general attitude of “it doesn’t work for me, therefor it’s crap for everyone and a fad”.

I like my Bondis. Love them, in fact. Someone here posted about the FreedomISO; I love those too. However, while strengthening my feet has benefited my running overall - including in Bondis - it’s a process. I can’t do all my runs in FreedomISOs and be uninjured; my left hip and lower back are rehabbing now from trying to do a 16-miler in them. The first ten miles were great, but then it got bad. That number used to be more like three miles, so things are getting stronger. However, since I can run 16 milers (and even marathons) in Bondis, should I not use them in rotation with the FreedomISOs as my feet get stronger because someone with fully strong feet thinks they’re a fad? Or should I just not use them and not run longer than ten until I can do it in lighter shoes? Why does anyone feel strongly enough that because they don’t like a shoe that they need to make sure I don’t wear them either?

96

Got my wife a pair on Bondi5 she like them…

OnCloud is working for me…so until it I wear those out… I might try some Bondis at that point

97

To answer your question, though, I think they are legit. Just not for me.

I love this response. It’s always seemed strange to me that not only on SlowTwitch, but more commonly here, there’s a general attitude of “it doesn’t work for me, therefor it’s crap for everyone and a fad”.

I like my Bondis. Love them, in fact. Someone here posted about the FreedomISO; I love those too. However, while strengthening my feet has benefited my running overall - including in Bondis - it’s a process. I can’t do all my runs in FreedomISOs and be uninjured; my left hip and lower back are rehabbing now from trying to do a 16-miler in them. The first ten miles were great, but then it got bad. That number used to be more like three miles, so things are getting stronger. However, since I can run 16 milers (and even marathons) in Bondis, should I not use them in rotation with the FreedomISOs as my feet get stronger because someone with fully strong feet thinks they’re a fad? Or should I just not use them and not run longer than ten until I can do it in lighter shoes? Why does anyone feel strongly enough that because they don’t like a shoe that they need to make sure I don’t wear them either?

You make a number of assumptions.

However, I understand your point and I respect your position.

I guess that the fact is that we are all riding the thin line between improved performance and injury - it’s just the nature of endurance sport.

I simply do not see how that a shoe that almost completely eliminates your use of the intrinsic muscles in your feet and ankles does not create its on set of injuries -on the opposite end of the spectrum from what you are guarding against. For instance, if I run speed work in a support shoe or a cushion(ed) shoe, then I get inflammation in my ankle and foot.

Edit: I got injured wearing Netwons. Gave away my last pair to Goodwill (unused). Maybe that was inconsiderate of me, I wish now that I’d burned them. Sometimes marketing campaigns trump individual accounts/anecdotes until N = 1+

98

I tried the Hoka Arahi to help reduce the impact pain of Achilles tendinitis. It worked but as soon as I got better I ditched the Hokas and went back to Saucony.

I just missed the feel of the road with Hokas. My Saucony Freedoms are great shoes.

99

You make a number of assumptions.

However, I understand your point and your position.

I guess that the fact is that we are all riding the thin line between improved performance and injury - it’s just the nature of endurance sport.

I simply do not see how that a shoe that almost completely eliminates your use of the intrinsic muscles in your feet and ankles does not create its on set of injuries -on the opposite end of the spectrum from what you are guarding against. For instance, if I run speed work in a support shoe or a cushion(ed) shoe, then I get inflammation in my ankle and foot.

Do please tell me what I’m assuming. Again, literally, long runs in light shoes cause me injuries. Long runs in Hokas do not. I don’t use my Hokas for speed work or 5ks or Strava segment attacks because they’re slower for me for top speed. My foot strength has been going up with this process. The only way for me to not use Hokas would be to drop from ~53mpw to under 40mpw. It’s a loser all over for me to take them out of the toolbox. Would I love eventually to get strong enough to not need them for marathons? Of course; they’d probably be faster even for that if I could handle it. But I’m not going to pretend that I’m already at that end state and pile up injuries because other people insist that Hokas are a fad and cause injury when my experience is literally the exact opposite.

100

After reading this post, I just bought a pair to try. I prefer to run in a more minimal shoe (1500, Fastwitch)…and always thought I would never like Herman Munster looking running shoes. I told the lady at the store that I will likely be using the 60 day return policy (I have only done this once before). I ran in them (Clifton 3) today. I really like them!!! I was really surprised. There was extreme cushioning, but there was also some responsiveness…not much, but I figured there would be none. I usually buy a shoe with a little posting and these are Neutral…but they actually feel like there is a little stability…I would think this would drive a true neutral runner nuts. They suck on slick surfaces.

**I think my legs may have been taking an unnecessary beating over the years…I am switching to these for longer training runs. **

Regarding whether or not they are a fad: I think the fad part is the stack height. I would think that technology would allow the shoe to advance with the same feel, and not be so tall. Also, I have never ran in other cushioned shoes, so perhaps these don’t feel different than other cushioned models.

While I have no hard scientific evidence, I’d actually just recommend the thought experiment that maybe there is a good reason that we humans have such well developed and complex foot/ankle and achilles anatomy and function, and that it may actually be a good thing for us to utilize such abilities given that scientists have concluded that humans are uniquely evolved (compared to other creatures) to run VERY long distances.

I’ve been making the transition to not only zero-drop shoes, but lesser and lesser cushioning, to the point I’m barefoot for several miles of each run. It’s taking a LONG time to acclimate, and yes, it’s been challenging. I’ve had to deal with achilles soreness, skin pain from barefoot running, sore feet, sore lower legs/ankles, etc. but I’ve been very patient and have been taking it slow (despite me having run 70mpw in regular sneakers for months not too long ago.)

I will say that having run in cushioned ‘regular’ shoes for 30 years now, I’m pretty shocked with how much more I have to load-bear in my feet and lower calf with minimalist/barefoot. With regular shoes, most of the forces get transferred to hip/quad/knee, whereas with the minimalist, those same forces are often absorbed by the lower calf and foot. I can’t help but feel that the cushiony shoes I’ve been wearing my whole life may greatly increase risk of injuries and overtraining as compared to the minimalist method, where you’ll usually get a niggle somewhere in your foot/calf that will slow you down well before you blow yourself up.

For sure, the minimalist (and esp barefoot) approach FORCES you to build up slow. WIth barefoot, you’re often running 1-2 miles at a time, which is GOOD, even for experienced runners like myself making the x-over. I know it wouldn’t be popular, but seriously, I strongly suspect if you took a noob runner, and just forced them to run all miles barefoot, you wouldn’t need any 10% rule or anything like that - the limitations with sore skin and sore spots in the buildup will force them to acclimate at the right (slower) pace.