applicable to today’s training?
I find it hard to believe it would be effective with today’s knowledge. Either way I found his take (and lack of respect for interval training) interesting.
He says very clearly in the end - you’re getting all the equivalent of hard intervals on the group ride attacks that you are expected to participate in.
He’d almost certainly change his tune with respect to triathletes who might never go on group rides with attacks.
That’s a pretty common misconception though. You’re rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.
However if you were going with Horner’s philosophy, you would probably be more motivated to do harder attacks at times - longer attacks at times. But generally - yes…a lot of doodling along for most average group rides.
He says very clearly in the end - you’re getting all the equivalent of hard intervals on the group ride attacks that you are expected to participate in.
Yeah, about 12 levels down the cycling eliteness scale, that’s my approach. Get lots of solo, low intensity volume in during the week, do the simulated road race group rides on the weekend. In those group rides you can get whatever kind of interval you want. If you want “sweet spot”/threshold, just sit in. If you want VO2 max efforts, attack off the front. If you want neuromuscular training, go for the town line sprints.
There are downsides vs. pure intervals. You can’t control the group, just your position in it. With true intervals you get to see progression over the same workout. Vs. group rides you have to use things like MMP curves to see how your power at different durations is progressing.
When approaching pure TTs, I’ll still throw in intervals because in a group ride it’s hard to ride right at threshold for long durations unless the group is magically right at your threshold pace and stays consistent.
That’s a pretty common misconception though. You’re rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.
How many crit races have you won?
But generally - yes…a lot of doodling along for most average group rides.
Horner’s group rides probably weren’t average. The ones I was on with him were full of pro triathletes, some domestic pros, Cat 1-2 types. Lesser talented, I was usually on the limit to just say attached, often failing at that. After the first ~5 miles exactly zero doodling, usually because the Cat P12 types would ignite the first real climb to drop all the Cat 3-5 riders and lesser triathletes for better group ride safety. Might have been tempo-ish for the likes of Horner, so then he’d join a more select group that’d go out to Mount Palomar or thereabouts for some real climbing (at which point zero chance for me). Cavendish used to do that ride as well.
That’s a pretty common misconception though. You’re rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.
I think you’re thinking of triathlete-group rides or casual group rides.
Ride with more than 2 competitive roadies who aren’t on their easy day, and there’s gonna be serious pain in there - more than you’ll get on your own in most cases.
Every group ride I’ve ever done with more than 2 competitive roadies (not triathletes) in the mix has been near tops for me in terms of avg power, NP, and max power. And I’m usually just trying to keep up - I’m not doling out the pain!
As of last summer, I want to say around 7 or 8? I race bikes primarily, mostly crits. Doing group rides for your intervals for most amateurs will result in a little bit of going too hard and a lot of going easy.
Even though the decisive moments of bike races tend to be from going over threshold, that’s built on having a good base at threshold, which many people simply will not do. In addition, many people will be more apt to go too hard.
A well periodized plan for a road racer definitely has some group rides in it. However, doing targeted intervals will definitely be better than doing group rides alone, assuming you’re trying to maximize performance
That’s a pretty common misconception though. You’re rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.
How many crit races have you won?
A crit is the hardest interval workout you can do.
Even the “wednesday night worlds” local group rides can be brutal. The one by me has a small hill a few miles in that takes 400W+ for three minutes just to not get spat out the back, and that’s early going with no one trying to force a selection.
rim brake, epo and oakleys is all i needed for 6.5 w p kg too
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As of last summer, I want to say around 7 or 8? I race bikes primarily, mostly crits. Doing group rides for your intervals for most amateurs will result in a little bit of going too hard and a lot of going easy.
Even though the decisive moments of bike races tend to be from going over threshold, that’s built on having a good base at threshold, which many people simply will not do. In addition, many people will be more apt to go too hard.
A well periodized plan for a road racer definitely has some group rides in it. However, doing targeted intervals will definitely be better than doing group rides alone, assuming you’re trying to maximize performance
it all depends the group. the ones I choose treat each ride like a crit race. I avoid the long distance beer social rides.
Those race group rides are great at getting you tired. Done properly they’re a great place to learn how to ride among a group. They’re not nearly as good at getting you fast as most think they are though. If all you’re trying to do is have fun, then fine. If that’s what get you actually on your bike, then no doubt you’re faster than if you didn’t go. If you’re trying to optimize performance, that’s not the way to do it.
When was the last time you spent 40+ minutes at threshold in one of those rides? Preferably time accumulated in chunks >10 minutes. Also, I know I’d never be able to properly do vo2 in a ride like that because I’m barely able to pedal after each rep, at which point you’re out the back.
That’s a pretty common misconception though. You’re rarely doing as much work as you think you are on group rides, no matter how many attacks you do, and it tends to be relatively one-dimenaional.
How many crit races have you won?
A crit is the hardest interval workout you can do.
Not if you’re doing it right. The key to successful crit racing, well, at least one key, is to do the least amount of work possible until it really matters.
Pro cyclists have 80-90 yearly race days; I have a hard time believing they are doing anything beyond base training on non-race days, let alone intervals
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Pros vs Joes and apples to grapefruits?
I know a lot of joes that are the super high miles low intensity sit in weekend B group riders who couldn’t do 280w for even 5min if their lives depended on it. Sure the pro’s intensity maybe came from “racing into shape†but it shouldn’t be confused with only toodling about at 130w all day in a group ride.
Pro cyclists have 80-90 yearly race days; I have a hard time believing they are doing anything beyond base training on non-race days, let alone intervals
Here is a TDF rider
They absolutely do intervals. In fairness this isn’t during race season.
12 minute intervals, alternating 2’30" at 35-370w 40/50rmp, 30" 470w 100 rpm
The simplest way to look at it is that intervals save time. So if you have unlimited time like a pro cyclist, perhaps intervals begin to lose some effiacy? And Horner is just dumb.
As of last summer, I want to say around 7 or 8? I race bikes primarily, mostly crits. Doing group rides for your intervals for most amateurs will result in a little bit of going too hard and a lot of going easy.
Even though the decisive moments of bike races tend to be from going over threshold, that’s built on having a good base at threshold, which many people simply will not do. In addition, many people will be more apt to go too hard.
A well periodized plan for a road racer definitely has some group rides in it. However, doing targeted intervals will definitely be better than doing group rides alone, assuming you’re trying to maximize performance
Shockingly there are different groups and different rides. Plenty of groups do specifically hard ‘drop’ rides in the hills during the winter. Some guys don’t want to do super hard group rides in the summer to stay sharp for racing often. I’d say if you’re not challenged by the group then you need to find a faster group. Judging by TSS there’s a good overlap between easy races and hard group rides. THat’s the kind of group you want to find.
You can build up threshold to a strong degree by doing VO2 style workouts (like what happens in group rides). You’re not doing group rides exclusively, there’s all the other days for z2 stuff. For crit racing I’d rather have a guy with a 10w lower 60min but a 10w higher 3min. For triathlon you’d pick the opposite. That’s just the way races work.
You have to remember too, that Horner raced in an era when even in North America you could get dozens and dozens of race days/year with hard, fairly big money races most weekends. When he was in Europe it would have still been at a time when most racers other than the elite few TdF guys raced very frequently.
How many interval days do you do in a year? If you have 60-90 race days and some early season group rides that doesn’t leave too many days that need structured work.