I have a friend who’s been out of the sport for a few years, and is doing his first IRONMAN race in a number of years. When he raced previously it was all Mass Starts for the Age-Groupers. Now, for the upcoming IRONMAN Mont Tremblant race, it’s one of the new Rolling Start formats.
He’s expecting to be as he was previously a top contender in his Age-Group and a good shot at a Kona Qualifier. In the Mass Start, with some help from some side-line spotters or your own deductions from on the course, you tended to know where you stood, both over all, and in your Age-Group - ounce you were late in the bike and beyond. With the Rolling Start format, how do you know what place you are in?
Looking for some input from top Age-Group contenders who have raced Rolling Start format races.
I’m not a top contender. Those that are place themselves at the front in the 50-60 minutes wave, and race each other. They won’t start more than 1-2 minutes apart from one another. The entire field only takes 15 minutes to enter water so it isn’t like we are spread all over the bike course.
Steve - He could put himself up front to know where he stands against some other top athletes, but that doesn’t change the fact that someone else might start 5 or 10 mins after him and be out of sight out of mind. Probably best just self seeding appropriately for the swim and hoping that IM tracker works well and someone relays that info to him. As you know, I won 70.3 Whistler this weekend, but I wasn’t first across the line. I still knew I had won the race because based on where I started the swim (seeded appropriately for my swim ability) it had been relayed to me that I had a 2 minute buffer on second place. He knew as well - only everyone else at the finish was confused.
He could put himself up front to know where he stands against some other top athletes, but that doesn’t change the fact that someone else might start 5 or 10 mins after him and be out of sight out of mind.
But, from my casual observations this is very rare. Anyone interested competing for a top slot is starting very near the front of the race. Thus, it’s fairly simple to have a good idea where you stand during the day. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen but I think it’s rare.
**Steve - He could put himself up front to know where he stands against some other top athletes, but that doesn’t change the fact that someone else might start 5 or 10 mins after him and be out of sight out of mind. Probably best just self seeding appropriately for the swim and hoping that IM tracker works well and someone relays that info to him. As you know, I won 70.3 Whistler this weekend, but I wasn’t first across the line. I still knew I had won the race because based on where I started the swim (seeded appropriately for my swim ability) it had been relayed to me that I had a 2 minute buffer on second place. He knew as well - only everyone else at the finish was confused. **
Graham,
Congrats on the win at Whistler!
What you opened up saying is the concern - not knowing where the competition is exactly - they could be behind you but ahead of you! Or the reverse, ahead of you but behind you. Personally, I would find that frustrating - but like my friend, I only experienced mass-start racing - you knew exactly where you stood at most times, and the position across the finish-line was the position you were in the race!
Yes - a combination of side-line spotters and those same people using the Tracker, could relay valuable information to the racer on the course. The multiple loop out-and-back nature of both the bike/run at IMMT will be helpful as well.
Get the guy to post himself, so he can share more about his race strategyWe need to know his swim time that he projects and if he is a fast starter or slow starter for his speed in the swimThey have signs for the different swim abilities. It really is a no brainer…seed yourself in your swim time and just go with people in the same range…if you like starting hard, start with people near the front of your seed zone, if you are a slower relaxed starter, start further back in your seed and pick off people
None of this is really rocket science. It’s just common sense. People are supposed to swim around other people of their ability. Its when idiots try to game the system and try to “optimize” their start position and swim with people who are not in the same ability range that the entire system gets messed up and falls apart for everyone they are swimming near whether they seeded themselves too slow or too fast.
I refrained from using all caps and shouting for this entire post because this question is beyond stupid…just swim where you are supposed to. It’s a complete no brainer. Its not complicated until idiots make it complicated by trying to game the system that is perfectly well set up if everyone behaves themselves.
I agree, a bit frustrating… but, there has always been some uncertainty in AG racing for a Kona spot as allocation isn’t known for sure until after the race for many age groups. You can guess at allocation, but as it’s based on # of starters, I don’t think competitors know until after the race how many spots are available in their AG. Add in roll downs and there’s more guessing going on. I’ll be in the same boat as your friend for Coeur D’Alene and my plan is just to focus on my own race, seed myself according to swim ability and at the end of the day see whether my effort gets me to Kona or not. I’m sure I’ll get a few updates along the way though.
With the rolling starts I think you can waste a lot of time an energy trying to figure out who is ahead and behind you. The dense traffic on the run course with multiple loops makes it difficult to know who is where on the course. I think the top age groupers need to start thinking of these races as a time trial, they need to get to the finish line as fast that there current conditioning will allow them too. Now if you have a couple of friends on the course using the tracker application it will help but I wouldn’t entirely rely on it.
I think you misunderstood the question. It was not how to line up for the swim, but how to know where you stood out on the bike and the swim.
I get that, but the title of the thread is “rolling start-strategy”. How you know where you are on the bike and run is just assume that everyone who crossed a point 30 min after you is ahead. There is no way to know. You just race your race starting from positioning yourself appropriately on the swim. Knowing where someone is in a 140.6 does not change what you are capable of putting out. Once the athlete is in the last 10 miles, everyone in front of them is a target. Everyone behind him/her is using him/her as a target and since you don’t know how far ahead or behind you are virtually, you have to keep the TT mode on to the end without the option of dialing back and “holding” your position.
Seriously the question is stupid on all fronts, because there is no way of know…start the swim in the right spot and then TT the rest of the day. Where others are relative to you and their actual chip time is way outside of your control. Not worth wasting energy and brain power on if you are trying to KQ since you can’t control that.
Well, that question really isn’t all that stupid and Dev really didn’t really answer the question asked . . . the question was how do you know your place late in the race and is there a corresponding swim start strategy, not how do you know where to place yourself in the swim (although Dev is right that that is part of it). The answer is you don’t know late on the bike or run. There are you usually 1 or 2 guys that you know and have your eye on so you know relatively where you are.
Interestingly, particularly in older age groups, it is kinda the same in all big races - I never know if the guy I pass or passes me is my age or not (the young guys look older and the old guys look younger!). So, I think trying to Q actually becomes a bit much honest racing in that you just race the best race you can as hard as you can and let the chips fall. The truth is you are only really “racing” a hand full of folks but you just don’t know who they are!
I refrained from using all caps and shouting for this entire post because this question is beyond stupid…just swim where you are supposed to.
Thanks for the chop-block at the knees, Dev!
I’ll be sure to pass-along how “stupid” the question is from you. I am sure they will jump at the opportunity to come on the forum then!
Steve the rest of the race after the swim is just an ITT. The swim seeding is a no brainer. Tell your buddy to race it like an ITT and not take the foot off the gas till the finish line. Same way as a cyclist in a TdF ITT and not different from large tri races with multiple waves per age group.
…and you are welcome on the chop block at the knees because both you and your friend are experienced people and know that in any race where your time starts at a different time from others (be it an ITT, a wave start where you want to beat others outside your wave, or in this case the rolling start) you just race it at your sustainable pace for the entire race and you can’t dial it back to hold your position like you can in a mass start race.
On the comment about Waysub4 winning the race and crossing the line second at Whistler, this is no different than when they have races with wave starts. Someone from the second wave can beat everyone form the first wave and still cross the line after many athletes.
I think you misunderstood the question. It was not how to line up for the swim, but how to know where you stood out on the bike and the swim.
I get that, but the title of the thread is “rolling start-strategy”. How you know where you are on the bike and run is just assume that everyone who crossed a point 30 min after you is ahead. There is no way to know. You just race your race starting from positioning yourself appropriately on the swim. Knowing where someone is in a 140.6 does not change what you are capable of putting out. Once the athlete is in the last 10 miles, everyone in front of them is a target. Everyone behind him/her is using him/her as a target and since you don’t know how far ahead or behind you are virtually, you have to keep the TT mode on to the end without the option of dialing back and “holding” your position.
Seriously the question is stupid on all fronts, because there is no way of know…start the swim in the right spot and then TT the rest of the day. Where others are relative to you and their actual chip time is way outside of your control. Not worth wasting energy and brain power on if you are trying to KQ since you can’t control that.
Sorry man, its not a stupid question at all. For someone (his friend) who has only done mass starts (how races should be run) I think its a pretty valid question, especially given the goals he may have. Your ‘go as hard you can’ or ‘it doesn’t make any difference’ inference is a bit simplistic.
Well, that question really isn’t all that stupid and Dev really didn’t really answer the question asked . . . the question was how do you know your place late in the race and is there a corresponding swim start strategy, not how do you know where to place yourself in the swim (although Dev is right that that is part of it). The answer is you don’t know late on the bike or run. There are you usually 1 or 2 guys that you know and have your eye on so you know relatively where you are.
Interestingly, particularly in older age groups, it is kinda the same in all big races - I never know if the guy I pass or passes me is my age or not (the young guys look older and the old guys look younger!). So, I think trying to Q actually becomes a bit much honest racing in that you just race the best race you can as hard as you can and let the chips fall. The truth is you are only really “racing” a hand full of folks but you just don’t know who they are!
David, you nailed it there. A few years ago at IM Tahoe, my wife was watching online and on several splits (calculated based on the math of chip time) late into the run I was in 3rd or 4th in my age group in line for the last Kona slot. I had no clue racing in ITT mode not knowing if I was 5th, 10th or 15th. But I paced myself not optimally (or did not manage my nutrition optimally…whatever), and slid from 4th to 7th over the line in the last 6K or so. With 3 people passing me, I knew I was out of the slots anyway and running on empty, I just could not bring myself to push further. I got passed by no other guys on the tarmac, but 2 more guys virtually passed me. The spread between everyone was really close…in the end, you had to race your own race. If I could have just run the same run as I did at IM South Africa that same year (graded for altitude) then the KonaQ was a slam dunk rolling start or not. In the end, I missed not because of anyone around me, but I did not execute the run I did earlier in the same year. Where others were had no relevance on the podium/slot. It was all me. There were plenty of younger guys to ‘race’ head to head to motivate me
Spouses need to be careful watching online . . . I had a race with an up hill in the rain T1 exit that I took VERY carefully and the 1st timing mat (very early) showed me at 12 mph . . . my wife turned off the computer since I bonked so early. When she checked back I was 1st off the bike and she wondered what the heck happened!!
