I haven’t been following triathlon as closely as I used to since Covid. With this pro series…. I’ve been looking at the results, and there are some ‘pros’ who have no business being a pro. We are talking 1 hr behind the winner in a 70.3. And not because of technical issues on the bike or some other unforeseen circumstance where they just walk it in and finish. I remember some years back I thought to get a pro card you needed to do a race with a certain amount prize purse and finish within a certain percentage of time as the winner. Does anyone know what the qualifications are these days?
We are talking 1 hr behind the winner in a 70.3. And not because of technical issues on the bike or some other unforeseen circumstance where they just walk it in and finish.//
How in the world can you think you know this? I hate when people just make shit up and then begin a gripe with inaccurate information. You have no idea what folks went through on their race days, flat tires, mechanicals, woke up with the sniffles but raced anyway, or working through an injury…And how does the back of the pro field affect the front by the way, still waiting on that reasoning…
Now if talking about bleeding into the front of the womens race, different argument and story. that one is on the RD for race start timing…
Relax! First of all, you can assume this when all their bike and run splits are evenly paced. If there was a bike split where they did 10mph, it was a loooong steep climb or they had some bike issues. Secondly, there’s one ‘pro’ that has said on social media that she has never broken 5 hrs for a half.
For every thread like this I’m asking for a thread encouraging more prize money/more sponsorship opportunities for pros. Just because very few can string together a living as a full-time pro doesn’t mean a whole bunch of athletes haven’t earned their pro licenses. It would be great if they could all focus 100% of their time on athletics instead of whatever else they’re doing to try to stay afloat.
If you’re talking about 70.3 Chattanooga, the 1st AG male was 4:05:50. Would’ve placed him 23rd in the pro field & have gotten him ~42 PTO points. You’d currently be ranked in the top-300 in the world (top-15 in the US) if you did that 3x. That’s a pro to me. 1st AG woman went 4:33:08. That would have gotten them 17th & ~51 PTO points. For whatever reason, maybe the bottom 20ish % of a pro field fades. People have bad races. It happens. It happens when you challenge yourself & try to push (just ask Nicholas Quenet). In the US, the pro standards are plenty legitimate. They’ll accept top finishes at the biggest races (AG Nats/Kona) or hitting a 106.2 score rating. Your license is good for 3 years & re-ups every time you hit the criteria. So, sure, maybe some people towards the back are approaching the end of their 3 years & aren’t going to be able to re-up. They’ll phase out. It doesn’t mean the system is broken. It’s good to see a healthy # of pros. Still very few pro athletes compared to a lot of other sports. More than ok with athletes finishing in the bottom 1/3 of a pro race & pushing their limits & not taking an AG win. There were 3 total athletes in Chattanooga who were > 1hr from the winning time. Would say all of the women under 4:45/men under 4:20 are going to be inside of the US pro standard. The same breakdown occurred in Valencia a few weeks ago with mostly European pros.
Thanks for the info. I was looking at the 70.3 chat results, but I first noticed this at the first pro series Race (st George?).
The fix here would be last ,3 races must be within winning time of 10% or lose your license, or better yet allow AG to chase prize $
.
or better yet allow AG to chase prize $ //
Well they can already do that, just have to get into the pro start, race under their rules, and have a go at it…
The fix here would be last ,3 races must be within winning time of 10% or lose your license, or better yet allow AG to chase prize $
I guess its probably better (in terms of sponsorship opportunities) to be a top age grouper than a back of the pack pro?
For every thread like this I’m asking for a thread encouraging more prize money/more sponsorship opportunities for pros. Just because very few can string together a living as a full-time pro doesn’t mean a whole bunch of athletes haven’t earned their pro licenses.
In the US, the pro standards are plenty legitimate.Yes, the “pro” licenses USAT award (and do not rescind) are in line with USAT policy, if that’s what you mean by “legitimate”.
I guess it would help if we called these “elite” licenses and not kid the ‘pro’ bit.
Please do not cite the time the AG winner records. A reasonable metric is the Pro winner’s time plus 15% (so for a 3:40 that’s 4:13 and for a 4:06 that’s 4:37). In another thread I predicted and then showed with data the difference in ‘tail of field’ between 2024’s opening races in USA and Europe: Oceanside and Valencia (with context drawn from 2022 and 2023).
And this isn’t a ‘Pro Series’ thing (the paucity of spring non-IM Pro Series 70.3s in USA has exacerbated the ‘problem’ combined with field limits part imposed by Race Ranger stock). Neo pros would be well advised to target non-IM Pro Series races: the chances of finishing well enough to win money is significantly greater.
The fix here would be last ,3 races must be within winning time of 10% or lose your license, or better yet allow AG to chase prize $
I guess its probably better (in terms of sponsorship opportunities) to be a top age grouper than a back of the pack pro?
All depends on what your goals are. I was a top age grouper in most races and wasn’t making money but training a ton. Qualified for me Elite License and took it because I knew I could be in the AG field the rest of my life but probably only have one chance at racing in the pro field. Ended up racing one season with a full time job but still training a lot (also wife just had a baby) and finished back of the field in both my races then next year cut back training because it was not fun/sustainable with my job/daughter and finished those races back of pack. If I could go back and do it again would I? 10000% yes. You say “why race pro if you come an hour behind the winner”? I say “why keep racing AG if you are winning races and able to qualify for you Elite License every race”? Step up and try a new challenge and the AG field will always be there. Now some might stay AG for money or because their ego won’t let them not be at the front but if you have to challenge for a win in order to be in that game then what is the point in doing anything unless you are one of the best?
But guess what happens after 3 years of not finishing within 8% of winners times? You cannot renew a license so it filters itself out.
I looked at some of those times from Chattanooga and had the same thoughts as you. Then I argued with myself with the same thoughts as monty…
Maybe IM should charge each pro $400 to race and then give back $400 if they show up and get within X time of the winner? It accomplishes a few things: ensures we don’t have people filling start lists only to no-show. Reduces the number of people filling a start list, only to DNF if they feel they are out of position. I get the idea of not continuing a race to save yourself for the next race if it’s not your day, but you wanting to take that chance for yourself kept someone else of the list – there should be cost for that. And finally, it reduces the number of very far back of pros just using their pro license to race like they did as an age grouper, only for free with more perks. If could qualify (not happening at my age), I’d definitely take the opportunity just for the nearly free entry, bike rack location, etc. I’d think twice about the number of “free” races I’d target if I was paying every time and not hitting the time target.
But it’s like what is said above. You’ll time out in 3 years if you can’t hit the standard as a US pro. Even the thrown out 15% covers a good chunk of the pro fields (75-80% or so?). People are going to have off days. I think the US standards are completely fair & have gotten more difficult every year since at least 2020. It has become harder each year to become a pro in the US. That means the bottom end of pro racing, in general, had to hit tougher standards to be there. I don’t see the problem with this other than more pros should be able to make a full-time living as full-time athletes. They’re not elite athletes just because they can’t sustain training/racing on triathlon alone. Very few can do that. Again, let’s figure out ways to fuel the sport instead of try to find the worst pro performers.
How about elite training groups like you see in running sponsored by a brand or multiple brands? How about paying deeper prize money (& less extreme decreasing prize money – maybe a little less for 1st & a little more as it moves down)? How about paying appearance fees & making them public? So many areas to focus on other than people trying to work their way up in the sport. People would just go back to complaining about missing out on World Champs slots if we just add a bunch of mid tier pros back to age group races. Let the people who would dominate there try to grow in the sport. Give them some economic opportunities so they can train harder.
or better yet allow AG to chase prize $ //
Well they can already do that, just have to get into the pro start, race under their rules, and have a go at it…
until then, a pro can sand bag in a race they know they will get a prize money spot… no just stop that completely.
This is a very fruitful discussion, and its great that we have a diverse set of opinions. My own opinion is that the rise of ironman 70.3 racing in the U.S. and the lenient standards to acquire a pro card has resulted in the cannibalization of the local age group elite triathlon scene all over the country, as well as negatively affected the development of younger/bop pros. 15 to 20 years ago in my home state and many others, there were races almost every weekend with multiple amateur athletes showing up with 1:53-2:00 and 4:00-4:20 HIM ability. Certainly a few local pros showed up as well, as many of these races actually had a bit of prize money. There was less impetus for a guy with these credentials to become pro, because they had everything they needed in terms of competition and prize money close to home. The vast majority of these races have disappeared, and there is no longer any prize money. Many of the athletes in this category in todays racing scene have acquired a pro card so that they can travel all over the country to race at an ironman 70.3. The problem is, these guys are not competing for a win, a podium, or even a top 10. They are starting at the same time as the professionals who are actually making money from the sport, but they are never actually racing them. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely. If you want to be a successful pro who makes money from the sport, you need to develop a winning/hungry mentality. This is 100% more important than any type of training that you do. You will never by being 30 minutes behind the winner and become comfortable with losing. 20 years ago you would have had your hands full with tons of fast amateurs in the local racing scene. When you were able to beat these amateur’s with ease, you built up a lot of confidence which helped you immensely when it was time to race the big dogs.
SO you say all these borderline pros used to race locally, and even get a few bucks in those races, but now those races are gone. And they are now racing in the 70.3 series as a result, but you dont think they should be there. So where are they supposed to race now then???
We need to keep in mind that today’s 4;10 ironman guy could be a 3;50 guy 3 years from now. Many of you just look at the back of the pros fields as if they are homogenous and unchanging. It is a very fluid area of the pro fields, and looking at it from a 5 year perspective, one can see there is a lot of movement, up, down, and out…
And lastly, why do you think those local small money races have disappeared? Does WTC have any liability there in your mind? Could they have actually created this dynamic that you seem to see as a problem now??
No, I actually agree with you in that these pros are simply taking the only option available to them. My argument is that it is actually suboptimal for their development in the sport. Its a similar concept to the minor leagues in baseball, with the problem in triathlon being that we no longer have any minor leagues. This is not ironman’s fault either, they are a business and are not responsible for the decline of local racing scenes. In fact, its really no ones fault, its just how the sport and its economics have developed over time. I do think there is an opportunity for people who care about the sport to try and recharge the local racing scenes by getting some local sponsors on board and offering up some small prize purses…
I guess its probably better (in terms of sponsorship opportunities) to be a top age grouper than a back of the pack pro?
Might be easier to convince your parents to stay in their basement for another year or two if you claim you are pro, so in that sense of sponsorship, no.
It’s not the “pro’s” fault, it’s USAT qualifying standards are too easy, IMO. And 3 years until they can be removed for not performing is too long.
It’s not the “pro’s” fault, it’s USAT qualifying standards are too easy, IMO. And 3 years until they can be removed for not performing is too long.
Don’t agree that it is too long. The pro race is 100x different than an AG race so many new pros need a season to just adjust to the type of racing. When I was at the front of the AG field I basically rode my race. My first pro race I tried to swim with a group, then latch on to a group on the bike, then survive the run. So the race was far from evenly paced. My AG bike files are basically steady where my Pro race files have a lot more spikes (in the few races I was able to stay with a group!). So year 2 is when you hope you’ve adjusted then get another year to try to get that 8%. 3 years is basically the perfect chance to really get used to racing and put forth a race where you can requalify.
Wow, there are some very critical people here (I already knew this). I am a pro, nothing to write home about, but no slouch either, and even I don’t bother to scroll down the results of other pros who are finishing that far behind the leader. It does not affect me in any way. So as someone who isn’t a pro, why do you care so much about these people who are back of the (pro) pack? Every country has it’s own criteria for getting their pro card. Those who qualify can take it if it motivates them, or not if they don’t want it. If an opportunity is there that motivates an athlete to train hard and become better, why are you sitting at your keyboard judging them for that decision?