I think it’s a logistical nightmare. How much carbs would you put?
Much easier with the PF1000, just take a bottle full of water and put a tablet in. Dissolving the powder with carbs required much more effort. Also would you use the carb + electrolytes one or the purely carb (heavy) one?
@E_DUB probably me, and the 100,000 Ironman customers don’t care how hard it is put carbs in bottles, because we are used to that all pre packaged in Gatorade or Powerade. So in a way, “its not our problem, it is a problem Ironman and Precision are just creating when there are market solutions out there” . While from a customer angle it sounds like we’re whiny, the expectation has already been set for 20 years.
@marquette42 you and I may disagree on a bunch of things, and while I agree with you that an athlete should do basic research any system by design should be fail safe for corner cases. I would bet the corner cases of people getting low on carbs because “they did not research” is high. I did 70.3 Worlds in 2024 with no idea that the on course drink had not cals and only learned about it 48 hrs before this year’s race. Why? Because I don’t care about Precision or any of these drink companies, so I don’t read about them, and I just assume that my starting mix with a few more calories off course (whatever it is) is sufficient to get me through a half. It’s generally a good assumption because I have a good starting mix, and I always carry a bail out bar in my bento in case I drop bottles at aid stations, at least I have cals. But that’s just a half IM. It’s a different animal for full IM.
In my case I have done IM races since 1991. Until 2024, the races I went to had carbs in the drink and I can drink any carb drink and digest it. So I never bothered reading that the drink had no carbs. If would be like pulling up to an Exxon station just expecting actual petroleum product with energy coming out of the pump, which is a normal expectation at a gas station and finding out it’s just salt water so now you’re literally “out of gas”
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Can you imagine volunteers having to make a million bottles of Maurten drink mix? Love the stuff, but it’s ridiculously hard to mix.
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Yup when I pull up to an Exxon I expect the pump to give me what I request which is 93 petrol not 98, not diesel, not water and not a snickers bar. I don’t just grab the green pump and say well it’s a pump it must be what I need and start filling up my unleaded fueled car. Nor do I pull up to the pump and try and plug in my Tesla rental into the gas pump. Bc I actually have a modicum of sense to know that I need to understand what I need and how to get it before I pull up to the gas station and if I don’t know I ask the question before I start putting stuff into my expensive car.
Where I think we would both agree is IM could and should do a better job making it very clear that hydration and fuel on course do not overlap. I think there is a chance someone could be confused and think the PFH on course IS their carb mix and that would be unfair to an athlete. So I would like IM to do a better job making it super clear which PFH is available and to be clear it only contains X carbs (not sure how many tabs they will use per bottle).
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Single reply for both you and @marquette42:
1.) Precision does already make a PH1000 product that contains more carbs in it. To be clear, it is not as carb heavy as prior on-course drink mixes were. But this is part of an intentional strategy to decouple your hydration needs from your fueling needs.
2.) With regards to education, I think this is part of the strength of moving to Precision over the substantially similar Mortal product. Precision has the educational component down; you can quite literally get a precise fueling plan from them via consultation and understand that the on course hydration is not fuel, it’s just electrolytes and fluid. That’s something that Mortal lacked. I also think most athletes can recognize Precision as a product line and will be more curious / understanding than when the Mortal switch happened.
3.) I have asked both IM and PF&H for clarification as to who made the call as to which product is on course. To be clear, from a volunteer lift perspective, tabs are a whole lot easier to make product of than a powder mix. (Let’s not even get into whether this whole thing moves aid station work into a more necessary component of the race production and if it should only be performed by paid staff.)
Ultimately: I would prefer a carb heavier drink mix on course. I would really prefer something without a sugar alcohol in it. But I do believe this is a step in the right direction as compared to Mortal, and you can still get all of your fueling needs from the course if you decide to go in that direction.
Exactly this, which is why it’s a problem that stevia is taking over. The economics of mass distribution are driving this. Shipping around truckloads of sugar and water is extremely costly compared to water from a hose and a single pallet of salt + stevia.
This is happening at scale everywhere, and endurance athletes are (should be) best situated to push back to why this is concerning.
All that said, it is entirely possible for a carb heavy electrolyte drink to be done, but it would take a bit of planning and prioritization from the IM race director. Of all the things to prioritize, I would think the nutrition of your athletes to finish the race, not bonk, and feel confident about doing more would be high on the list! Not telling them silly analogies about “when hiking Everest, you better learn yourself some stuff.” Works on the forums, not great for repeat business.
1 5 gallon water cooler dispenser
1 5 lb bag of sugar ordered from local food distributor (they are already ordering bananas etc)
That would fill 24 800ml bike bottles with 90 grams of carbs each. Then they just need to add however many PH tablets are needed per 5 gallon bucket, something I assume they are already doing (or just have them in the bottle before they fill with water, whatever method they use).
At a minimum, it seems reasonable this extra step should be done on the bike. On the run, grabbing gels, makes total sense.
The alternative is, of course, PH shipping multiple bulky pallets all over the world of their hicarb mix, which I agree is cost prohibitive.
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Has the run DNF rate increased since the introduction of PFH and Mortal?
I don’t think its a case of not taking ownership, moreso that that an IM is a big logistical hurdle to clear on your first go, and not everyone gets all the details right on their first go.
I know for me that my first IM (and probably the 2nd) I wouldn’t have known what was in the drink - I just took what was handed to me and assumed that the “sports drink” I was given on course was, you know, useful for completing that same course.
If I’m looking back and being honest, I knew that calories were important, and that I needed to eat along the way, but I don’t think it would have gone further than “take what’s offered”
Totally fine with that that can certainly be a factor, but it’s the same as training poorly. It’s not the race organizer’s responsibility to ensure you did all your training race prep same as it’s not their job to tell an athlete exactly what to eat. They should clearly inform athletes what will and won’t be available on course and I agree with @rrheisler that having 1 global hydration sponsor will help with that.
There’s a logistical problem with your sugar plan for mass consumption, not that I considered it to be a serious proposal. The sugar would not dissolve correctly in cold water. It would clump at the bottom of your five gallon container. So the first bottles filled from the spigot would be heavily sugared, and the last ones would have very little.
Sugar cooked in hot water makes simple syrup, which would mix more readily.
Oh wait, they sell that in gallon jugs, like Hawaiian Punch concentrate. Maybe we should all be putting electrolyte tabs in Hawaiian Punch!
Okay, getting serious here… I appreciate the idea to separate hydration from carbs so that an athlete can more carefully calibrate what they are getting per hour. That said, I think I do better taking in carbs in liquid, gel and solid forms continuously through a long race, moving to mostly liquid in the last ten or so miles.
Generally, I’d drink a bit of Gatorade or Gatorade Endurance (don’t laugh, it worked great for me!) every ten minutes on a Ironman, and eat something every 20 minutes, like a gel, a section of on-course banana, a portion of a Clif Bar or a couple of Clif Bloks. I’d keep two bottles on my bike, one for sports drink and the other an on-course bottle of water. Now that Gatorade Endurance is off the market, I’ll be looking into other sugar-based or maltodextrin-based sports drinks. Maybe try Tailwind or see what Precision offers as a powder.
Going forward, I think I’ll just continue having my chosen carb drink powder pre-packed in tied baggies to tear open and dump into my bottle and/or have pre-filled bottles waiting at the personal needs bag. Yes, it necessitates a quick stop at aid stations, but in my age group, it’s not fatal to my race times, I don’t lose that much.
Every time I hear “decoupling” I think some marketing person came up with a way to pretend that Ironman is doing their participants a service, rather than the more likely truth which is they will use whichever product’s sponsor is best for their bottom line.
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why do so many people rely on the on course nutrition? it’s BS and/or incompetence imo.
Just prep your bottles properly and have gels on you. Especially if you haven’t trained with that product it’s a silly risk to take on the day.
On course nutrition should be for desperate measures like losing your nutrition or being heavily dehydrated.
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Personally I don’t love carrying 7 Maurten gels on my person on a 70.3 run. Also I don’t love carrying sodium with me on a 70.3 run. Haven’t found a great way to do it. Best solution I’ve found is hydration belt with a concentrated sodium citrate mix, but I hate the feel of the belt and concentrated sodium is not enjoyable to drink. Still need water from the course either way.
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For a 70.3 carrying all you need on the bike is easy. On the run is where I would like to see another drinkable carbohydrate besides coke. For a full IM it’s hard to carry 120g of carbohydrate per hour worth of nutrition for a full 5 hours of biking.
If you need 7 gels on a 70.3 run either it takes you 3 hours - and nutrition is pointless at that pace - or you’re overdoing it. ~150g of carbs per hour on a 70.3 run is bonkers.
7 Maurten Gel 100s for a 1:35 70.3 = ~110g/hr.
wowzer, almost Blummenfelt levels. I go 10 mins fast with half the intake, maybe I’d shave another 5 mins off 
Took a hand out bottle of this on IM70.3 West Aus the other day racing and wow, i was not prepared for the fizz lol. Be warned if your thinking its a flat watery drink, you may start burping !
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Golly! After all these Ironman races living off the course I guess I have been doing it wrong
Seriously, I have lived off the course for all 35 of my Ironman finishes (after my first two bottles). I have had some reasonable successes. In fact, I have always taught people to live off the course. I think it can still be done, but they are making it difficult. The good thing is Maurten (and all) gels seem to sit fairly well with me. I was able to figure that out pretty well and race well with the Mortal hydration. The potassium in the Precision hydration is what has me worried. Maybe mortal had it also, I just don’t remember.
In any event, I recommend that everyone practice to live off the course cuz you never know what’s going to happen with your nutrition. It also makes race day much less complicated. Uncomplicating your race is a huge asset!
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I weigh 200lbs and am 6’4” so that also pushes my carb intake up a bit.