I’m trying to decide between purchasing an Ironguides or Endurance Nation training plan for next season. The big difference between the two that I can readily see is that Ironguides prescribes workouts based on perceived exertion while EN plans also give workouts based on power or heart rate. In another post there was some limited discussion and critique of the EN plans as being fundamentally flawed because of their reliance on power/heart rate for training (though I believe they also have perceived exertion as a guide). Is there anyone out there who has seen both plans that can discuss the pro’s and con’s of each approach?
brian, i have not used the generic training plan, but i used marc becker at ironguides for almost a year in 2006 for lake placid. i can’t say enough good things about the plan
or marc himself. if you want further details, pm me.
by the way, i’m in atlanta too sorta - roswell. where are you?
sent PM
.
Anyone else???
I used the EN plans for LP 2007. Similar to the previous poster, I cannot say enough good things about Rich & Patrick and their programs. I don’t know that I recall any specific posts regarding “fundamental flaws” to the EN method of training, but I know there was some discussion about a blog post from another coach who criticized their method for pacing the IM bike during the race.
EN – Low cost index tracker fund
Ironguides – Hedge fund
.
What was the criticism to their bike pacing strategy?
Much of their bike pacing guidance for IM is based upon power and its associated acronyms. Rich recommends a target TSS of 290-300 for an IM bike, above that level and the risk of imploding on the run is magnified. The blogger was shooting holes in the use of that TSS level.
In it’s original incarnation EN was a spectacular value. As of late, my opinion of EN has diminished significantly. That’s not to say that gains won’t be made with EN, they will. But the value factor has gone down significantly with EN.
Lately the site has kind of become very nickel dimey. The amount of information you will receive has been diminished since the original version, and most of the knowledge is contained to the “pro” forum where you pay a higher price to be a member. The rest of the forums are good, but don’t offer much more info than would be found on ST. It’s got a huggier happier, beginnertriathlete.com kind of feel to it though.
One of the other issues that I kind of have with EN is that the information is ALL OVER THE PLACE on their site. Rich and Patrick are on to some good things as far as distance (read internet) coaching is concerned, but a lot of their knowledge you really have to work to find on the site. They have released “the book” but it doesn’t really get into the specifics that you’ll hear mentioned on their forums. You’ll hear these specifics mentioned but they are always posted somewhere else you have to pay more to get to. In the previous incarnation they were discussed in the “training groups and training group podcasts”, now they are in the purchased plan podcasts.
I guess my final say about it is that I like and dislike EN about equally. Your mileage may vary.
If you would like me to get more specific, PM me. I don’t want to appear as though I’m bashing them.
So far, Tim has gotten closest to nailing EN’s philosophy, but if you want to check it out for yourself, Rich and Patrick lay everything out for nuthin’ in their Long Course Triathlon Training Guide.
Just some brief points to make:
They focus on ROI for your investment hour. 95% of us (yes, I made up the statistic, but you get my point) have to fit our training in and around our real lives. Rich and Patrick understand this and structure their training philosophy with this as a fundamental.Success on race day, for the majority of folks in an IM, is largely a function of risk management. The TSS pacing guidelines play into that, in that analysis of literally hundreds of power files from IM athletes has demonstrated a tendency for solid IM marathons to follow bike efforts that fall within a fairly narrow band of TSS results. Does this mean that EN athletes stare at their PM’s the whole ride, making sure their TSS is right on target? Absolutely not. It does mean that EN athletes think that that particular TSS range is a good starting point for pacing discussions, to be verified in race rehearsals and then executed in conjunction with all other available metrics on race day to ensure success.I can’t (and won’t) comment on the ironguides’ training philosophies, workouts, or support environment because I simply have no experience with it. I can tell you this, though: I would never advise anybody to buy a training plan simply because they think that plan holds a secret or a key approach to success. I don’t claim that the EN plans, by themselves, are better than you could either create for yourself (given the investment of effort to understand and apply the training principles) or purchase elsewhere from folks with similar philosophies. Rich and Patrick do bring years of coaching and learning experience to the table with their plans, but the real strength of EN, in my humble opinion, is in the environment they’ve created in the Nation. The benefits of group training that folks have touted as a key strength of outfits like teamTBB are alive and well at EN, with every member having shown with their wallet their belief in the system and commitment, not only to their own improvement, but to the support and success of every one of their EN teammates.As with anything, there are pros and cons to any approach, and one size doesn’t necessarily fit all equally well. Francois’ pithy description of EN is right in one regard, though: On race day in IM, risk doesn’t often pay the big dividends. In the Nation, though, part of risk management is working (damn) hard in training, so that when race day arrives you can focus on execution, without worrying about your fitness.
Just my two cents …
cramer
I had success this July at IMLP using the free 36 week ultra distance plan from www.opentri.com
You may wanna consider that too.
I’m trying to decide between purchasing an Ironguides or Endurance Nation training plan for next season. The big difference between the two that I can readily see is that Ironguides prescribes workouts based on perceived exertion while EN plans also give workouts based on power or heart rate. In another post there was some limited discussion and critique of the EN plans as being fundamentally flawed because of their reliance on power/heart rate for training (though I believe they also have perceived exertion as a guide). Is there anyone out there who has seen both plans that can discuss the pro’s and con’s of each approach?
EN does a good job of structuring training programs based on objective data (power and pace). However, they do not ignore percieved exertion. Nobody does. Frankly, for tracking progress, it is very hard to beat power and pace. Same is true for race pacing strategy. Data is good if you know what to do with it and the guys over at EN do know what to do with it. THere is alot of value to be had at EN. You get access to the training programs and all questions you might have, as well as personal adjustments to the plans, are done online in the forums. Lots of other info avialable on the site as well.
The EN approach to IM training is alot of work. They trade some volume for intensity, and I think it is a good tradeoff. A 4 hour ride might have a full hour at 90-95% FTP in the middle, plus a couple of other intervals. A 2 1/2 hour run might have two 30 minute intervals at 1/2 marathon race pace. At no time will you just find yourslef out plodding along slowly for a couple of hours. If that kind of thing appeals to you, give EN a shot.
Mike
don’t know about EN but I can say, having been w/ Ironguides and Marc/Vinnie- it didn’t take a hedge fund for me-there are different levels of training based on the individual and their goals vs. being a pro/elite. They are more than willing to work with you. Now, on to their style of training; I’ve been self coached to the elite level in my past- I’ve had fellow certified coach/athlete/friends give me coached plans in my recent re-entry into the tri scene with some success but by far and away the I.G. coaching method has really worked wonders for me. I love not having to be a slave to the Garmin or be worried about power- course, I’m pretty in tune with P.E. and know through repeat testing if I"m improving or not. It’s pretty freeing while at the same time HARD QUALITY with amazing results.
Hey,
Just adding my input here. I want to make clear that EN training plans and EN membership are two separate, but obviously related, issues.
Plans: I suggest you review the results and testimonials of our athletes. We need to post the results and good words of our athletes who raced Canada, Louisville, and Wisconsin. Then, create a trial membership and ask our members for their experience and recommendations rather than listen to me. What I can say is that these training plans have been refined 1-2x per year since 2005 and we’ve had more than a few successes this year. Adding more detail to Steve’s 95% note, our training plans are the training solution we’ve found to work for 95% of the people 95% of the time. We help people manage the remaining 5% themselves through the guidance in our online training guide, the documentation that comes with the plan, and membership/support in the forum (optional, see below). Most notably, we recently added a “Self-Coached Athlete’s Guide” to our plans. Our best advice for what to do if x, y, or z needs to be adjusted in the plan, including how to insert A, B, and C Olys and HIM into an IM training plan. Our goal with these training plan products is to provide, through the detail of the plans and the supporting documentation, a completely standalone self-coaching solution: buy your plan, go away, never “need” to ask us for help or pay us another dime.
I like to call the result “team coaching:” a team of athletes all using the same suite of 3-6 training plans, with coaches as teachers and helping people manage their own training using our training plans. I’ve done a complete 180 in my coaching in the last year. I’ve gone from a full roster of 15+ 1:1 athletes at ~$350/mo to exactly 1 athlete: a local woman who is just a great friend of mine. Why? After doing it this way for a year I realize I just can’t create 600-800% of the value for a 1:1 athlete that I create for our EN members. Instead, I’ve fired myself and encouraged them all to purchase our plans and hopefully become members. It’s just a better value.
Membership
The way I’ve come to explain EN when I talk to people at races is this: we are two coaches who’ve combined resources to create a training shop for self-coached athletes. On the shelf you’ll find training plans, podcast packages, ebooks, a DVD, etc. Plastered on one window of our shop, that you can read without stepping inside, is The Book. On the other window is a our Blog, much less organized but still a ton of free information. The Book is “this is how we coach/how we have created the products inside the store.”
If you step inside the store (ie, create a trial membership in our forum), we’ll give you 10% off anything in the store. We are also currently giving away a $37 ebook to trial members. Thanks for checking us out, here’s a discount code and an ebook. While you’re in the shop, you can go into back of the shop, where there are several different discussion rooms buzzing with conversation. During your trial membership, you can cruise around, seach the forums, talk to our members, and decide if this is a place you’d like to hang out in for $15/mo. At the end of your trial if you decide the online thing isn’t your gig, no worries, thanks for checking us out, you still have that 10% discount code and the ebook above. We hope you stay in touch and we’ll likely see you at one of the races we go to throughout the year. If you decide to join the team/become a member, your “dues” are $15/mo. You retain your access to those rooms in the back, we’ll give you 20% off on all of our stuff, and each month we’ll give you a “member reward,” typically a $15-40 ebook or similar product that Patrick and I have created.
So, at about the time of that trial membership expiration, we imagine that people are doing the math on “$x/mo x y-months - 20% discount on $xxx plan + I get a reward every month + I like/don’t need the support in the forum.” That’s exactly what we want people to do. The people for whom the continued support of the coaches and the community is worth $x/mo will select themselves. Those with a different value equation will choose something else. We hope they choose to purchase a plan, an ebook, etc from our shop.
NateC, I think the confusion and/or nickel and dime thing you describe is a function of you coming in under our original $99/yr open access membership. At that time, you paid us $99/yr and gained open access to all of our forums AND all of our training plans: like, 40+ plans at $100-150 each. You’re right, it was an incredible valuable service for you…but not much of a money-making model for us. We did the math around May and decided that we needed to make some drastic changes or we would not be in business after about July 1 
That’s when we went to the shop + membership model described above. You and many other members have been stuck between models and we’ve done the best we can. Namely, you will retain access to the forum for the length of your current membership, and we sent to ALL of our $99 members a link to download a zip folder of ALL of our '08 training plans, 40+ of them. Our recent training plan sale created an opportunity for us to offer these members an incentive to “upgrade” to the current $15/mo structure. Your comments regarding the vibe of the forum…that’s exactly the determination we want people to make for themselves. Good fit, bad fit for you, your choice to join us or not join. People who find value for themselves with select for themselves.
But, to be clear, since July 1 there have been no “hidden forums” or membership tiers. You are either in, and everyone sees everything, or you’re not after the expiration of a two week free trial. You, and others, have kinda fallen into the middle and we’ve done everything we can to accomodate both groups as best we can.
Value: yeah, we are no longer at $99/yr. See out of business, two homeless coaches, starving kids above However, an all-in, season-long training solution with EN is about…$400-500 for a season, I’d say. I realize that’s within the budget of some/many, well outside for some/many, everyone needs to make their own choices. However, keep in mind that every EN training plan is a complete standalone product. IOW, you don’t need to buy our swimming ebook, we include V1 of our ebook with the plan. You don’t need to buy our Power Webinar, I’ve written about 3-4 pages of Training with Power stuff and included it with the plans. You don’t need to buy a 4hrs podcast package with Patrick and I discussing each week in detail…we’ve included all the detail you NEED in the plan. But by offering ebooks, podcast package, and other products, including EN membership, as add-ons, everyone is able to assemble the combination of training tools and support to fit their needs and budget.
Stuff all over the place: it’s in The Book (free), it’s in the Blog (free, use search) or it’s in the forum (free two week trial, then pay to play, can use search). If it’s required to train with our training plans, it’s included in the documentation. We will publish ebooks and other stuff, approx monthly, that will be available for sale, at a discount to members. See coaching shop comments above but also see “everything you NEED to use our plans is included” above. Our job is to create value and products to occupy the space between “need” and “want more detail,” allowing you to decide how to best spend your money.
The Results:
Since making the switch away from annual and towards a recurring monthly membership, we’ve had about 170 people become members, over 130 since Aug 1. In addition, at every race I’ve gone to this year (every single NA IM) to deliver a pre-race talk, I’ve been stopped on the street and thanked for a PR, gotten kudos on our DVD, our talk, been thanked by spouses for the reduced training hours and better results achieved by their EN members, etc. Most importantly, I’ve received many comments from athletes who understand that we are trying to do something different, create value for them vs be just another $$$ coaching shop. And, to review, I’ve been that $$$ guy for years but I’ve found what I feel to be a better way.
Hope this helps.
I train with a PM and I really like the EN approach to training AND the approach to racing, specifically as it applies to an IM.
I originally got on board when it was an annual fee of $99. Before my 1 year was up I voluntarily upgraded to the $15/month pro membership.
I recently bought my 2009 season plan as well. Being a member I received 30% off during their sale so my entire 2009 year cost about $450. Pretty small investment compared to the entry fee for one NAS IM.
I have no experience with Ironguides, but EN has a great approach and Rich & Patrick are working hard to make sure their athletes get the value and enjoy training and racing.
just my $.02!
Rich, to be fair, you are absolutely 100% right. I’m one of the members who paid $99 and was stuck in the middle.
To be honest, (please read this with the tone of two guys talking over coffee, and not two guys who are about to get into a bar fight)
I feel a bit hosed. I’ve gotten value from my EN membership but at the same time with in a couple weeks of my “joining the team” my $99 was for not. All that I was getting for that money was membership to another forum. It’s a good forum, has awesome members, but I don’t need to spend money to be part of another forum.
I NEVER received an email containing a .ZIP file with all of the '08 training plans.
Now I’m left with paying for newer plans, when I’ve already spent money for plans in the first place but never had the opportunity to receive. In my opinion, you should have left the $99 members with access to the old stuff for the term of their membership.
The Endurance Nation Site has gone through great changes since the new format. These changes had to have been in preparation long before I was a member. I joined because of the particularly great value EN offers a self coached athlete. Within a few weeks of joining, I was given the options of paying more money for training plans and forum membership, or staying the same but not having access to everything even though I had JUST paid to be on the site. For a while I held off, I wasn’t sure if EN was for me. I hadn’t been around long enough to know if I could incorporate EN’s philosophy into my life, or if I even wanted to incorporate EN’s philosophy into my life. I hadn’t even gotten a chance to start a training plan. This week I finally opted in for the $15 a month “pro” membership. This allows me to view one more forum.
But I needed to see what was in that forum, because in a few other places (specifically the power and pace forum) the answers to questions I was very interested in came back "this has been talked about in the “PRO” forum quite a bit.
Rich, I’m not trying to be an ass. I’m trying to clearly articulate to you how I feel that not everyone was taken care of in the switch. I feel like I was left hanging and I’m not like “most” triathletes. I struggle to make ends meet and have to save for months to pay for race fees.
Rich, to be fair, you are absolutely 100% right. I’m one of the members who paid $99 and was stuck in the middle.
To be honest, (please read this with the tone of two guys talking over coffee, and not two guys who are about to get into a bar fight)
No worries. Thanks for the dialogue :-).
I feel a bit hosed. I’ve gotten value from my EN membership but at the same time with in a couple weeks of my “joining the team” my $99 was for not. All that I was getting for that money was membership to another forum. It’s a good forum, has awesome members, but I don’t need to spend money to be part of another forum.
I would say that you received access to the forum AND open access to all of our '08 training plans. That has NEVER changed for our $99 members. All you had/have to do is ask. So, access to a forum + support from the coaches + open access to 40+ training plans for $99…you said yourself this was a great deal and the terms of that, for you, have NEVER changed We announced this when made the switch and the HUGE sticking point, in all of this, is us getting our stuff/emails into member’s hands through email filters…grrrr
I NEVER received an email containing a .ZIP file with all of the '08 training plans.
We sent the email out three times in early August, through the forum email system to the email addy that you subscribed with. See filters comment above, kicking our ass, seriously. Short of showing up on doorsteps with a bag of zips, not sure what else we could have done Email rich@endurancenation.us and I’ll get that zip to you right away.
Now I’m left with paying for newer plans, when I’ve already spent money for plans in the first place but never had the opportunity to receive. In my opinion, you should have left the $99 members with access to the old stuff for the term of their membership.
See above. You DO have access to it. The reason why we sent everyone a link to download all of the plans was because the system we had in place behind the scenes was a huge admin cost for us. You paid $99 for access to all of our plans…here are all of the plans…go nuts. We should have done that in the first place. August was just our way of delivering, to you and everyone else, everything you had paid for all at the same time. Again, email me.
The Endurance Nation Site has gone through great changes since the new format. These changes had to have been in preparation long before I was a member. I joined because of the particularly great value EN offers a self coached athlete. Within a few weeks of joining, I was given the options of paying more money for training plans and forum membership, or staying the same but not having access to everything even though I had JUST paid to be on the site. For a while I held off, I wasn’t sure if EN was for me. I hadn’t been around long enough to know if I could incorporate EN’s philosophy into my life, or if I even wanted to incorporate EN’s philosophy into my life. I hadn’t even gotten a chance to start a training plan. This week I finally opted in for the $15 a month “pro” membership. This allows me to view one more forum.
Doode, there has been no grand plan in place…as some have noted Where/what EN is now and what it was “supposed to be” last year when we combined our businesses are very, very different. Along the way we’ve learned a ton about what was and wasn’t working, and made changes to adapt. What MBA-type members would call “lack of a business plan,” I would call two guys with truly no other option than to figure it all out as they go and do it all without the safety net of a real job. But mostly, everything above could have been solve by just emailing us and asking “what’s up?” We are real people who, if you race IM, you’ll sit across from at dinner and will hear us give you a pre-race talk. We are, truly, just two guys thinking outside of the box to create something of value for you that is a viable business model for us. Along the way we work our asses off. That’s really as complicated as it all is.
But I needed to see what was in that forum, because in a few other places (specifically the power and pace forum) the answers to questions I was very interested in came back "this has been talked about in the “PRO” forum quite a bit.
Agreed. That said, upping the discount to Pro Members (from 10-20%) AND giving our members something of value every month (that monthly reward dealio, as an ebook, etc) was our whatweknowaboutbidness way of taking the value conversation away from the forum (intangible) and towards stuff that everyone understands: better discounts and free stuff
Rich, I’m not trying to be an ass. I’m trying to clearly articulate to you how I feel that not everyone was taken care of in the switch. I feel like I was left hanging and I’m not like “most” triathletes. I struggle to make ends meet and have to save for months to pay for race fees.
Understood and understand that we are doing our best to build something different: 99.99% of 1:1 coaching, and in some areas 110%, for a fraction of the cost. But in the end, you gotta see the value and we gotta get paid. If we can meet in the middle and shake hands, both getting something out of the deal, that’s what it’s all about. As I tell our members when I go to races to support them: you’ve paid me $$$ for a plan and $$/mo. Do you think I want to show up and shake your hand 48hrs before your goal race, knowing that I haven’t delivered to you? In then end, you gotta question and don’t know how a service relates to you? Just ask! I’m usually pretty easy to find and we are, again, just two guys trying to get a nut in this great big world
Rich, I like to perceive myself as an intelligent, college educated, willing thinker. I don’t know why it never occurred to me.
As you have pointed out, very politely I should add, much of this confusion on my part has occurred because I didn’t bother to simply just ask. I’m sorry if it seems I’ve put you on trial. Never my intent.
I’ll say here publicly, I owe you a beer at the first race we are both in attendance (IMFL '08?). Thank you for taking the time to publicly resolve an issue I should have just taken the time to email you about.
For everyone else: I can’t see someone needing more evidence that the guys who run EN are standup guys who are willing to earn your business than the exchange Rich and I just had.
I have been w/ Ironguides since March and have been VERY happy with them. Their approach is unique and effective. Finish your workout then dont worry about it. Train you to understand yourself andy your limits.
What’s wrong with you and Rich chit-chatting politely and not going into a nasty online verbal joust???
Do I need to bring THE Desert_dude to edit all that polite crap you two send to each other??
What’s wrong with slowtwitch???