To me, indoor riding just builds foundational strength. The overall training quality is probably much higher than outdoor riding, because it is hard to do things like VO2 intervals, Sweet Spot intervals, over-unders, etc. unless you have a closed road.
My trainer cadence is pretty close to outdoors. I probably naturally ride ~5 RPM faster on the road. If I cannot hold the wattage target at my desired cadence, then I will override and dial back the power target.
I don’t really think about “indoor FTP” vs. “outdoor FTP.” In part, because as has been debated ad nauseum, FTP is more of a theoretical concept, and Garmin, TrainingPeaks, Strava, and TrainerRoad all calculate FTP differently. I just know that I am generally most optimized racing 70.3 at around 75% of my TrainerRoad FTP.
For sure, I don’t even really use “FTP” much anymore when prescribing workouts. I use the goal of the session and the prescribed watts; so I guess technically it’s based on FTP, but not really at the same time. Or shall I say, I don’t even “test” for FTP anymore. I can basically gauge with good accuracy what FTP is just based on workouts you do on a weekly basis. And at the same time, FTP to me for my training is sorta an thumbs up “cool” to know/use; but it’s not this holy grail number anymore that I think it once was like 20 years ago, etc. (I base most of my training more on specific race demands/needs than an “FTP” number).
Sounds like you just need a bike fit. There is a big difference in how I’d fit someone inside only vs outside only be it on a road or TT bike.
You should not struggle to hold aero inside or outside for long stretches of time. If you do or you find yourself sitting up a lot it’s bike fit/saddle issues
Have you listened to the Triathlon Hour podcast? Pretty much EVERY pro on there sounds like they don’t ride indoors in aero, because of the discomfort (I’m going to assume neck+saddle area). It got so bad that one of the co-hosts Ari Klau who might even be reading this right now LOL, just went on public as to how his coach Jack Kelly is demanding he do all his indoor bike training in aero so the numbers on race day look more like his indoor numbers. He admits to riding out of aero almost all the time until recently because of such discomfort.
It’s not just super common, it’s absolutely expected. A bike fit won’t solve it without training.
Never, I’m pretty busy coaching a bike racing team, my own athletes, aero testing & bike fitting. I’m only on ST a few times a month now.
That’s a fitting solution
I’m pretty familiar with Ari’s fit, he was in my fit studio last summer for that and aero testing. IDK why a coach would demand riding in all aero on the trainer, sounds dumb to me, especially if the athlete isn’t comfortable. If it’s aerobic session then just ride. If it’s vo2 make sure you’re breathing like a fish out of water. It’s 10x more important to ride a bike than worry about which position you’re riding in on the trainer.
If you’re a coach and worried about the numbers matching the simplest solution is run indoor and outdoor data charts. Then it doesn’t matter what the data is, it’s specific to the situation.
I’ve done 5 or 6 only indoor bike fits. All of them can ride in the TT position for hours w/zero discomfort. I don’t see how getting more fit (training) will make indoor riding more comfortable. You just are riding 5-10w higher for the same effort & discomfort. Maybe your thinking of training your indoor position. Again, if your indoor position is painful, you have a few solutions, not an all inclusive list mind you.
you can get an indoor only bike & get fit to be comfortable indoors
Get a bike fit
Ride however it’s comfy
Now I’ve got to go run a training session for the bike team. If I remember I’ll circle back to this tonight
I’d love to see this as a main-page feature, with examples of age-groupers that could ride for hours on the trainer no problem, and without much indoor acclimation. I’ll also add I”m riding a static trainer (no rocker plate etc) so that makes things even tougher on the neck/back/butt, even if I’m out of the aerobars. It all gets pretty tough at the 3hr mark for me no matter what indoors. Outdoors, I’ve done 8+hrs no problemo on a road bike and 5 hrs mostly TT aero no problem.
If you’re able to ride for hours on end outdoor, then who gives a flip if you can or can’t ride aero for hours indoors. If your trying to argue it’s not a bike fit issue for fit/discomfort issue (yes being “static” will always be part of it,but far out bro.
I can ride hours on end outdoors AFTER being trained properly for it.
My point has been that it’s always taken me like 1 hr indoors aero to be able to do 2-3 outdoors, but definitely not the reverse - if I can ride 3 hrs outdoors in aero, I’m pretty uncomfortable on my static trainer after 1.5hrs and have to start taking sit up breaks. But again, I’m on a static trainer so I do think it makes it harder.
desert_dude seems to have people that he fits, and then can instantly ride hours indoors. I suspect that’s more a factor of the level of fitness/acclimation to aero that his athletes already have - I don’t think he’s seeing BOP/MOPers for the most part but I could be wrong about that. If you’re dealing with elite/pros, they ride so much (10+hrs/wk) that I don’t even think they need much specific aero training at all, and they can just race it. For us AGers who don’t ride that much though, it’s a lot bigger ask to ride 3,4,7 hrs for HIM/IM and hold aero without doing it regularly indoors and out.
Having known you for almost a decade + now. Your ability to argue with any expert with almost any subject matter within triathlon is almost become legendary. Your n=1 counterpoints to almost basic level accepted information….i have to give you a golf clap LH.
Someone once told me sometimes we should just shut up and listen and we’d be better off.
When’s the last time you checked your indoor and outdoor fit?
Experts are NOT infallible. I usually agree with them, contrary to what you think, in the vast majority of cases. But if I disagree, I usually have a pretty good reason for it, and I bring data. Just listen to the last bunch of pros interviewed on The Triathlon Hour in the past few months - I think every single one of them including Ari, Taylor Knibb, and most of the hosts, do most of their trainer riding out of aero. Whether its for discomfort, or just chasing power numbers, whatever, but that’s what they’re saying. I was actually shocked to hear this - we’ve heard time again to train in your race position as amateurs, yet none of the pros were doing it! Ari seems to be the only who’s changed his game due to his coach’s insistence, and he admits his power numbers look worse for it.
I’d always assumed pro triathletes were doing all their training in aero - because that’s what pretty much every triathlon coach for amateurs strongly recommends, and I assumed incorrectly that the pros were doing it par excellence. Turns out I probably ride a lot more % in aero indoors than the pros LOL.
I haven’t gotten a ‘pro’ fit for like nearly a decade now. But I’ve tried nearly every change in between over the years and multiple bikes. There’s no way a fitter is going to massively change my fit and improve everything - it’s going to be chasing small, small gains as I know what works with that decade+ of experience and trying a lot of stuff. (Even the fitters I’ve watched videos of admit this is the case for long-term riders like myself.) If I upgraded to like a $2k cockpit, i’d probably try it again but I’m no pro and pretty happy with my bike splits as is. It’s the swimming (and now running) that I have to worry about!
So you complain about discomfort on a bike, admit you haven’t had a fit in a decade and then you argue with an expert who’s telling you it’s likely a bit fit issue as to why your having issues? Small changes in your fit are really the only way you can make things last generally, just simply because your body can only accept/adapt to incremental changes. The information I know and as a professional fitter who’s probaly done 300 fits in the 14 years I’ve been a fitter, your likely not going to ever be able to do “big changes” and that be the cure all answer for LH to be able to ride 4 hours indoors the next day.
I’d argue pro’s likely have the worst “comfort” on a bike within TT bikes because they are having to get the most aero out of their bike and likely are willing to do that by giving up *some comfortability. Now obviously they have to be basic level of comfort to hold aero position for X amount of hours, but being shocked that pro’s aren’t in aero on an indoor ride…I’m not, I’d ask why do it, if it’s not comfortable. Like just ride your fucking bike.
I’m fine on my bike. I ride fine for hours L outdoors and race No problem.
I’m just noting the typical static trainer discomfort that everyone gets. It’s why they invented non static trainers like rocker pads. So I’m not complaining at all about something that requires a bike fit you just want to believe that I’m saying that.
You get all huffy and angry for no reason it seems.
No I just get tired of some of your non-sensical replies. Now your saying your fine on a bike, after complaining about your indoor riding issues the past half day of this thread. But you do you LH.
You keep trying to read extra stuff into my posts and then you get all angry about it.
I said pretty clearly it’s uncomfortable for me to hold indoor static aero position for like 3 hrs even though I do it on race day no problem. It’s pretty clear.
And I still think DesertDude’s expectation that people can just get a fit and then ride with no neck or back discomfort for like 3+hrs on a trainer (static) is not the norm.
The Trivelo coaches have a podcast, and they make a huge point that you should NOT assume you can ride the same hours indoors and outdoors immediately, and that it takes the vast majority of their athletes dedicated indoor acclimation to reach like 3hrs and beyond. Even the really good ones. They dedicated an entire podcast episode to this very thing, talking about how athletes always make the mistake of mistakenly thinking they can do their 3hr outdoor ride indoors when they haven’t ridden indoors all season, and despite using the same bike on the trainer, they can’t finish due to neck/back/butt discomfort.
And they aren’t the only coaches - nearly every coach source I’ve heard/seen says the same thing. To be cautious with static indoor trainers because of the discomfort in static positions that you’re not ready for from just outdoor riding.
Which is why I questioned DesertDude’s assumption just getting a good fit and riding for 3+hrs no problemo, no discomfort. He could be right, I’m open to it, but I’m definitely skeptical.
No, they invented rocker pads to help with saddle discomfort. They simulate the natural side to side swaying motion you get outdoors and help reduce pressure on sit bones. Has nothing to do with assisting aero positions…
Yeah, I know. I’m just putting out the possibility that the rocker pads MAY somehow give just enough motion to somehow make the aero discomfort less after hours, but I too agree it’s obviously mostly for saddle position.
Are you just getting on your bike and riding 3+hrs with zero neck/back/butt discomfort while holding aero the entire time with few to no breaks? Especially if you haven’t been doing such rides regularly?
