IM Bike Pace - 70-75% of FTP - use your AP or your NP figure?

Triathlon Forum
1

As the subject says really

I understand you should be riding 70-75% of your FTP in an Ironman bike…

So lets say your FTP is 300 - so your range is 210 to 225 watts…

So out on the road I have on my screen my Average Power but also my Normalized Power… I know with nice even riding both these figures should be as close as possible (but not always the case with a bit of freewheeling down some hills!!)

So what really should you use - Average or NP to try to ensure to be within the above limits?

Tried searching for the answer, but nothing clear jumping out

Cheers guys!!
G

2

NP but as you stated your AP and NP should be as close as possible. Especially for Ironman distance.

3

NP but as you stated your AP and NP should be as close as possible. Especially for Ironman distance.

Great stuff - yeh was veering towards that alright - thinking that if you were chasing in the last 20-30miles of the IM race to try to raise your AP into the required range it would be a bad idea - when NP maybe already in range.

Can differ a fair wee bit when a good bit of climbing I think

Cheers!

4

AS stated use your NP with tight VI to average … my suggestion on race day is use a screen that shows

  • NP
  • Current Power (3 sec avg)
  • Time
    and
  • HR if you use
    … I don;t even think you need to see what your AP is. Use your current power to keep you in check and under your targeted caps on hills / climbs / flats etc. … use your NP as target to NEVER go over (stay under) … and other metrics as you see needed … keep the data feedback to minimum, use only what matters in the present

Best,

5

AS stated use your NP with tight VI to average … my suggestion on race day is use a screen that shows

  • NP
  • Current Power (sec avg)
  • Time
    and
  • HR if you use
    … I don;t even think you need to see what your AP is. Use your current power to keep you in check and under your targeted caps on hills / climbs / flats etc. … use your NP as target to NEVER go over (stay under) … and other metrics as you see needed … keep the data feedback to minimum, use only what matters in the present

Best,

Brilliant stuff Dave - very informative thank you

Yep i use the 3sec power to keep things in check as well - I don’t limit myself (by a cap) on the hills - I just go by ‘feel’ on these and never try to veer badly into the red zone. Not sure what value you place on a cap like this or how to work this value out.

6

AS stated use your NP with tight VI to average … my suggestion on race day is use a screen that shows

  • NP
  • Current Power (sec avg)
  • Time
    and
  • HR if you use
    … I don;t even think you need to see what your AP is. Use your current power to keep you in check and under your targeted caps on hills / climbs / flats etc. … use your NP as target to NEVER go over (stay under) … and other metrics as you see needed … keep the data feedback to minimum, use only what matters in the present

Best,

Brilliant stuff Dave - very informative thank you

Yep i use the 3sec power to keep things in check as well - I don’t limit myself (by a cap) on the hills - I just go by ‘feel’ on these and never try to veer badly into the red zone. Not sure what value you place on a cap like this or how to work this value out.

I’d also say that a good tip is to not go out just “a little” to hard, and try to hold it. It is (in my experience anyway!) very common to go out just a bit to hard, because IM-racepace feels so easy the first hour or so! I’d say a lot of guys end up having an NP a little bit above their limit in the start, and gradually fade (not by much perhaps, but still fade). F.ex - if you aim at 225 NP I think a lot of people will find themselves at 230-240 NP the first hour, only to have it fade and perhaps end up in the “targeted” range.

IMO its alot better to start out real conservative - f.ex. make it your aim to not exceed 215w NP the first 30 min. IF you feel good, you can try and build very gradually and build the NP upwards rather than having it fade! I think this is good both mentally and physically! Of course this does not mean that the last hour should be ridden at 240w “just because you can”, but I think that after 4 hours on the bike this is “self-regulating”. .90% of folks will not find themselves pushing 80% of FTP in the fith hour of an Ironman. If you (against the odds) feel that 240w is really easy then perhaps your goal-power was abit conservative, but that is a way better discovery to make than going 240w for the FIRST hour and realizing that you perhaps were a bit offensive:)

7

AS stated use your NP with tight VI to average … my suggestion on race day is use a screen that shows

  • NP
  • Current Power (sec avg)
  • Time
    and
  • HR if you use
    … I don;t even think you need to see what your AP is. Use your current power to keep you in check and under your targeted caps on hills / climbs / flats etc. … use your NP as target to NEVER go over (stay under) … and other metrics as you see needed … keep the data feedback to minimum, use only what matters in the present

Best,

Brilliant stuff Dave - very informative thank you

Yep i use the 3sec power to keep things in check as well - I don’t limit myself (by a cap) on the hills - I just go by ‘feel’ on these and never try to veer badly into the red zone. Not sure what value you place on a cap like this or how to work this value out.

I’d also say that a good tip is to not go out just “a little” to hard, and try to hold it. It is (in my experience anyway!) very common to go out just a bit to hard, because IM-racepace feels so easy the first hour or so! I’d say a lot of guys end up having an NP a little bit above their limit in the start, and gradually fade (not by much perhaps, but still fade). F.ex - if you aim at 225 NP I think a lot of people will find themselves at 230-240 NP the first hour, only to have it fade and perhaps end up in the “targeted” range.

IMO its alot better to start out real conservative - f.ex. make it your aim to not exceed 215w NP the first 30 min. IF you feel good, you can try and build very gradually and build the NP upwards rather than having it fade! I think this is good both mentally and physically! Of course this does not mean that the last hour should be ridden at 240w “just because you can”, but I think that after 4 hours on the bike this is “self-regulating”. .90% of folks will not find themselves pushing 80% of FTP in the fith hour of an Ironman. If you (against the odds) feel that 240w is really easy then perhaps your goal-power was abit conservative, but that is a way better discovery to make than going 240w for the FIRST hour and realizing that you perhaps were a bit offensive:)

Yep know what you mean - it can be hard on race day to dial it back, you do feel so good, esp in that first hour. But bit of experience now, hoping to dial in the bike as best I can but just trying to eek out as much as I can without obviously going over and paying for it, but trying not to undercook what I am able to do. I think mentally it would scare me a little to go very conservative from the get-go - I will def be watching my NP as well as going on feel (breathing easy, heart rate well in check, trying to settle in and plan nutrition on time etc)

The figures we are using are pretty much my values - my most recent FTP done just last week at a 25m TT is 306w - so I will be working on the range of 215 - 230 say in upcoming long distance in a few weeks.

On my last long ride done two sundays back I came back with a AP of 209w / a NP of 225w for 112miles - so now happy my NP is well within the proper range - and felt reasonably good coming off the bike for my run after.

Looking at my power graph it looks decent (to the eye - pretty even with no major drop off) - I don’t use Trainingpeaks etc where I can take samples out etc and see my NP for sections - so not that detailed. But would imagine 2nd half would be slightly less than first, just going by the natural way most people would tend to go - but happy nonetheless with it.

This route had an ascent of about 3800ft as well so not completely flat - went on feel for the drags and tried never to red zone it.

power.jpg

8

I get what you are thinking when you say you want to eek out everything you can without overcooking it :slight_smile: I think the same way - but I’ve learnt that if you have a pretty decent grip on your FTP, it takes a VERY conservative pacing for the first half for you to “loose” any real time that you will not make up for later. I’m not one of the very experienced guys (only done 1 full IM, a good deal halfs, some open marathons etc…). I have “blown” several times - I.E. gone out just a tad to hard and felt that I’ve paid for it later. The times I’ve felt overly cautious in the start however - I’ve never felt that i “left something out there”.

Sure if your FTP is 300 you dont want to go out at 180w the first hour, but I think that anything over 200w first 30-60 min, and you wont be leaving anything out there. If you have a good day - you should easily “make up” for that easy start during the last half of your bike. If you have a “bad” day and 200w starts to feel heavy the last half, you better be glad you started at 200w, cause had you started at 230w you would be in for a rought day:) Also - and this part can probably be detailed alot more by the experienced guys - but I think that biking a few mins slower than “your potential” almost always is something you will make up for in your run!

Its funny (and I catch myself thinking the same way before every race!) - when questioning how hard to go out we are talking about differences of a few minutes on the bike-split (i.e. going out abit conservative the first hour will probably only “cost” you 2-3-4 minutes at most). However, these minutes on the bike pale in comparison to the minutes you loose on the run if the tank goes empty. In that case, one could be looking at a “loss” of 2-3-4 mins per kilometer of the run - now that really accumulates :slight_smile:

9

I get what you are thinking when you say you want to eek out everything you can without overcooking it :slight_smile: I think the same way - but I’ve learnt that if you have a pretty decent grip on your FTP, it takes a VERY conservative pacing for the first half for you to “loose” any real time that you will not make up for later. I’m not one of the very experienced guys (only done 1 full IM, a good deal halfs, some open marathons etc…). I have “blown” several times - I.E. gone out just a tad to hard and felt that I’ve paid for it later. The times I’ve felt overly cautious in the start however - I’ve never felt that i “left something out there”.

Sure if your FTP is 300 you dont want to go out at 180w the first hour, but I think that anything over 200w first 30-60 min, and you wont be leaving anything out there. If you have a good day - you should easily “make up” for that easy start during the last half of your bike. If you have a “bad” day and 200w starts to feel heavy the last half, you better be glad you started at 200w, cause had you started at 230w you would be in for a rought day:) Also - and this part can probably be detailed alot more by the experienced guys - but I think that biking a few mins slower than “your potential” almost always is something you will make up for in your run!

Its funny (and I catch myself thinking the same way before every race!) - when questioning how hard to go out we are talking about differences of a few minutes on the bike-split (i.e. going out abit conservative the first hour will probably only “cost” you 2-3-4 minutes at most). However, these minutes on the bike pale in comparison to the minutes you loose on the run if the tank goes empty. In that case, one could be looking at a “loss” of 2-3-4 mins per kilometer of the run - now that really accumulates :slight_smile:

understand completely :slight_smile: sounds good! thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated.
I think if I replicated my training ride in the race, I’d be more than happy :slight_smile: but will take into account race day factors and try not to get too excited :slight_smile: lol

Cheers!

10

Looking at my power graph it looks decent (to the eye - pretty even with no major drop off) - I don’t use Trainingpeaks etc where I can take samples out etc and see my NP for sections - so not that detailed. But would imagine 2nd half would be slightly less than first, just going by the natural way most people would tend to go - but happy nonetheless with it.

Gary,

To my old eyeballs it appears that your power actually dropped off a good bit over the course of the ride. You were really spiking the high power times the first hour or so. Download a copy of Golden Cheetah. It’s free, highly featured and pretty darn intuitive to use. It will quickly show you things that aren’t easily apparent by eye.

Hugh

11

Looking at my power graph it looks decent (to the eye - pretty even with no major drop off) - I don’t use Trainingpeaks etc where I can take samples out etc and see my NP for sections - so not that detailed. But would imagine 2nd half would be slightly less than first, just going by the natural way most people would tend to go - but happy nonetheless with it.

Gary,

To my old eyeballs it appears that your power actually dropped off a good bit over the course of the ride. You were really spiking the high power times the first hour or so. Download a copy of Golden Cheetah. It’s free, highly featured and pretty darn intuitive to use. It will quickly show you things that aren’t easily apparent by eye.

Hugh

Cheers Hugh- defo a drop off, but yeh maybe more than I like to think lol - didn’t look too bad to me - maybe I’m thinking cause it doesnt look like an elevation profile then its good :slight_smile:

Yeh will check out Golden Cheet - cheers for recommendation!

12

Looking at my power graph it looks decent (to the eye - pretty even with no major drop off) - I don’t use Trainingpeaks etc where I can take samples out etc and see my NP for sections - so not that detailed. But would imagine 2nd half would be slightly less than first, just going by the natural way most people would tend to go - but happy nonetheless with it.

Gary,

To my old eyeballs it appears that your power actually dropped off a good bit over the course of the ride. You were really spiking the high power times the first hour or so. Download a copy of Golden Cheetah. It’s free, highly featured and pretty darn intuitive to use. It will quickly show you things that aren’t easily apparent by eye.

Hugh

Cheers Hugh- defo a drop off, but yeh maybe more than I like to think lol - didn’t look too bad to me - maybe I’m thinking cause it doesnt look like an elevation profile then its good :slight_smile:

Yeh will check out Golden Cheet - cheers for recommendation!

The number of 500 watt episodes that occurred in the first hour or so is a huge red flag for overdoing. Notice that you didn’t do that very much later in the ride as PE probably came ore into line with reality. Vastly exceeding your FTP on a regular basis during an IM is not a recipe for a good run.

Now is certainly the time to sort this rather than after the IM.

Hugh

13

Looking at my power graph it looks decent (to the eye - pretty even with no major drop off) - I don’t use Trainingpeaks etc where I can take samples out etc and see my NP for sections - so not that detailed. But would imagine 2nd half would be slightly less than first, just going by the natural way most people would tend to go - but happy nonetheless with it.

Gary,

To my old eyeballs it appears that your power actually dropped off a good bit over the course of the ride. You were really spiking the high power times the first hour or so. Download a copy of Golden Cheetah. It’s free, highly featured and pretty darn intuitive to use. It will quickly show you things that aren’t easily apparent by eye.

Hugh

Cheers Hugh- defo a drop off, but yeh maybe more than I like to think lol - didn’t look too bad to me - maybe I’m thinking cause it doesnt look like an elevation profile then its good :slight_smile:

Yeh will check out Golden Cheet - cheers for recommendation!

The number of 500 watt episodes that occurred in the first hour or so is a huge red flag for overdoing. Notice that you didn’t do that very much later in the ride as PE probably came ore into line with reality. Vastly exceeding your FTP on a regular basis during an IM is not a recipe for a good run.

Now is certainly the time to sort this rather than after the IM.

Hugh

Definitely taken on board Hugh - thanks fella!

14

I didn’t see if you mentioned HR. What did your HR do while the power was dropping on that ride? Have you heard of decoupling? Training Peaks (paid version) shows the Pw:HR.
Also, are you including zeros in your power data averaging?

15

I didn’t see if you mentioned HR. What did your HR do while the power was dropping on that ride? Have you heard of decoupling? Training Peaks (paid version) shows the Pw:HR.
Also, are you including zeros in your power data averaging?

Getting beyond my comfort zone :wink: whilst the terms do ring a bell (have read the Training/Racing with PM a while ago) - these are details i haven’t fully went into. I’m just using my Garmin default overview for my figures - so not analysing it to the extent of which it could be! It does interest me alot, just haven’t got into the real fine analysis of things just as yet in my training and racing! :slight_smile:

But looking at HR graph - yeh defo 2nd half there is a def increase - it was a rainy/windy day and I think it got a bit headwindy 2nd half which may account for parts of that.

16

I would give yourself a cap on climbs (doesn’t mean you need to hit it BUT it’s a number you don;t want to do anything sustained over … considering your FTP is 300, I would use 255 (250 safer :wink: OR your NP from a recent 70.3 that you ran well at. By having that cap it keeps you under control early, helps you to flatten the course by staying in a tight power range, and in the end spare glycogen by not having any high power episodes. (w/o a power cap it will be VERY easy to rip it at threshold power over climbs early in the race)

In the end you have to trust that how “easy” it feels in the first 2-3 hours will help it not feel like a miserable death march the last 90-120min of the run

Best,

17

I would give yourself a cap on climbs (doesn’t mean you need to hit it BUT it’s a number you don;t want to do anything sustained over … considering your FTP is 300, I would use 255 (250 safer :wink: OR your NP from a recent 70.3 that you ran well at. By having that cap it keeps you under control early, helps you to flatten the course by staying in a tight power range, and in the end spare glycogen by not having any high power episodes. (w/o a power cap it will be VERY easy to rip it at threshold power over climbs early in the race)

In the end you have to trust that how “easy” it feels in the first 2-3 hours will help it not feel like a miserable death march the last 90-120min of the run

Best,

Brilliant - thanks Dave - lol - death march doesn;t sound good!

18

Returning to the original question and subject title:

For an IM, Hunter’s recommendation (in Table 11.1 of the 2nd edition of our book) is to aim for an IF, i.e., ratio of normalized power to FTP, of 0.70-0.76, or an *average *power that is 68-78% of FTP. (And yes, I know that those numbers don’t match up/don’t really make sense.)

19

Returning to the original question and subject title:

For an IM, Hunter’s recommendation (in Table 11.1 of the 2nd edition of our book) is to aim for an IF, i.e., ratio of normalized power to FTP, of 0.70-0.76, or an *average *power that is 68-78% of FTP. (And yes, I know that those numbers don’t match up/don’t really make sense.)

lol - great stuff - yeh gonna aim to be within that 5-6% range for my IF for sure :slight_smile: thanks Andrew

20

Your “variability index” for non-draft tri should be below 1.06, and that is NP divided by AP. Most bike computers don’t show this, so you can just show both NP and AP and try to keep them the same.

Here’s a full description. http://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204071734-Variability-Index

I thought I heard the latest Garmin update included it, but here’s also a video of somebody that built it as a custom field in Connect IQ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MftDGhXAVys