Shoplifting (also known as commercial burglary) is theft of merchandise for sale in a shop, or of money from the cash register of a retail establishment, by an ostensible patron.
and from the theft wikipedia page:
The actus reus of theft is usually defined as an unauthorised taking, keeping or using of another’s property which must be accompanied by a mens rea of dishonesty and/or the intent to permanently deprive the owner or the person with rightful possession of that property or its use.
For example, if X goes to a restaurant and, by mistake, takes Y’s scarf instead of her own, she has physically deprived Y of the use of the property (which is the actus reus) but the mistake prevents X from forming the mens rea (i.e. because she believes that she is the owner, she is not dishonest and does not intend to deprive the “owner” of it) so no crime has been committed at this point. But if she realises the mistake when she gets home and could return the scarf to Y, she will steal the scarf if she dishonestly keeps it. Note that there may be civil liability for the torts of trespass to chattels or conversion in either eventuality.
Fair enough, it definitely is shoplifting. Thanks for the wiki-research! Again, I’m not saying that I agree with what he did. I was responding more to the strength of the reaction against him. People were flat out saying that he had a serious moral deficiency. It’s an $80 tire taken by a guy who has probably contributed thousands of dollars to the store’s profit margins. It’s not right, but he didn’t drown any puppies.
I just wanted to add a couple of bad experiences I have had with an LBS. I usually do all of my own self but a couple of years ago I was leaving town and needed to get my bike tuned up with racing season coming, so I drop it off at the LBS, apologize for it being dirty and the owner says it’s not a problem they will clean it as part of the service. When I get back in town I pick it up and head home, only then do i notice that they did not so much as run a rag over any part it. I usually keep my bikes clean and this was an exception which is why I said something to the guy. About a year later I am looking to buy a tri bike so I called a few places (including Demerly’s place) and this same owner tells me he can get me into a tri bike in my price range. I jump in my car and head through rush hour traffic to get their and then find out that the cheapest he will go is $500 over my price range…which I had been very specific about on the phone. I never went back and have since moved out of town. Only LBS I ever had trouble with, though one I raced for had a guy who would not talk to anyone looking at a bike that was not the top of the line for the brand and if you had a pro jersey on he would quiz you about the team to see if you “deserve” to wear the jersey.
I bought my first bike, a Bianchi, from an LBS in Denver. After I bought the bike the shop took it in for final servicing before I took it home (tighten cables, etc). The pick-up that day was a little strange, but only a couple months later, when I had fried the BB bearings and pitted the BB did I realize they had prepped the wrong bike. They never admitted the mistake and I never went there again.
In contrast, Machinery Row here in Madison asked me twice if I really wanted them to adjust my RD (barrel adjustment; I was clueless) then refused to charge me for it even though I offered. The honesty and generosity have made me a loyal customer.
With regard to the tire-guy, “context” does not excuse the act; we’re talking an expensive tubular tire here, not a loaf of bread for starving children. There is no context.
I think the word “service” is so foreign to many of these guys, yet that’s the only way they can separate themselves. As I am typing this, I was supposed to be having a swimming video/evaluation with a Chicago area Tri dealer with an endless pool. After being prompted for a time to come in, I e-mailed back. No response. Another e-mail to him, no response. Again. Finally I could call, but if they’re that arrogant and don’t truly want my business, why am I wasting my time with them. There must be a number of people(maybe I’ll try Madison) who would take my money for a bit of swim help. I just don’t understand why they don’t see that a little service will get you repeat customers, which costs NO marketing dollars. He’s driven many dollars through my sport span to another dealer…
Although I’ve had my share of poor service from two of the five or so LBSs, I’ve seen and experienced great service at the other three.
For example, this weekend I was at one of my favorite LBS just picking up a new bike lock for my older daughter and some Hammer Gel for myself. The place is mobbed, with people buying bikes, etc. It is spring after all.
Anyway, they guy in line in front of me puts two kids helmets on the counter and wants to exchange them because the decorative plastic shell has warped and bubbled. It was obvious to me that they had been left in a hot car, or some similar hot place. The young kid behind the cash register started to suggest that maybe they had been left in a hot place. Of course, the guy in front of me said they hadn’t been. Anyway, a more senior employee steps in and tells the guy to pick out two new helmets and that they’d be glad to exchange them.
Just like any retail stores, there are good LBS and bad LBS.
I was pretty impressed. I would have probably told the guy to take a hike. Good think I’m not involved in customer service.
Everyone is aware that I know squat about mechanics, etc so I would be prime rip-off material. Instead of hitting the closest store, I drive a bit further out to where I purchased my Lucero. They treat me with respect, usually are faster than promised and in turn, I bring cookies that look like Zipp Wheels.
The Wrench, if that’s the lingo, is of highest caliber, former proteam mechanic. He took a photo of the cookies and sent it to his buddies at Zipp.
When a store makes such a mistake you pay and leave: It’s their mistake and they should pay for it… The price of ignorance if you will.
It is truly sad how some people value currency over integrity. It never ceases to amaze me.
I consider myself a very moral person. A business -who’s bottom line is to extract as much money as possible for the services it supplies- is simply not in my moral spectrum… I know for I’m not in theirs either… Those days are long gone! You gotta play the game as it is, not as you wish it was.
When a store makes such a mistake you pay and leave: It’s their mistake and they should pay for it… The price of ignorance if you will.
It is truly sad how some people value currency over integrity. It never ceases to amaze me.
I consider myself a very moral person. A business -who's bottom line is to extract as much money as possible for the services it supplies- is simply not in my moral spectrum... I know for I'm not in theirs either... Those days are long gone! You gotta play the game as it is, not as you wish it was.
That is so wrong on so many levels. I really hope you don’t teach that lesson to your children, “Get yours while the other guy isn’t looking.” Basically your philosophy boils down to (as I read it) “Hey, the businesses are out to screw me as much as they can, so lets see if I can screw them first.” It’s no wonder so many small businesses fail and local stores are fast disappearing from all market sectors…
I consider myself a pretty moral person, and I will return the extra quarter I get in my change, much less a $$ item.
What would your priest / rabbi / minister / judge say if you presented this scenario to them? Do you think they would say that your actions are moral?
Well, the only one that counts is the Judge - I’d like to find out what he would say!
So you are a very moral person, but you discount a religious figure as any type of authority on morality. So, I guess the only morality that counts is your own, huh?
What would your priest / rabbi / minister / judge say if you presented this scenario to them? Do you think they would say that your actions are moral?
Well, the only one that counts is the Judge - I’d like to find out what he would say!
So you are a very moral person, but you discount a religious figure as any type of authority on morality. So, I guess the only morality that counts is your own, huh?
John
I didn’t bring up religon nor did I comment on it, I simply replied to the relevant part of the argument. But since you asked:
I disregard ANYONE who worships a work of fiction.
Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Sheikh, etc… they are all the same to me.
Christopher Hitchens: “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
I disregard ANYONE who worships a work of fiction.
Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Sheikh, etc… they are all the same to me.
Christopher Hitchens: “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
So the answer to the basic question of “The only morality that counts is your own” would be a yes. Thanks for clarifying that.
So then, what would the judge say? The opinion of a police officer would also suffice, particularly if they work in commercial crime. Earlier in this thread I posted a definition of shoplifting, that might be a start.
I disregard ANYONE who worships a work of fiction.
Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Sheikh, etc… they are all the same to me.
Christopher Hitchens: “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
So the answer to the basic question of “The only morality that counts is your own” would be a yes. Thanks for clarifying that.
John
Well, I believe I did say that I respect the views of a judge … It’s your mind that sees morality as a religous issue.
Moral: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior.
If you need religion to tell you what’s right or wrong that’s your issue.
I disregard ANYONE who worships a work of fiction.
Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Sheikh, etc… they are all the same to me.
Christopher Hitchens: “What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.”
So the answer to the basic question of “The only morality that counts is your own” would be a yes. Thanks for clarifying that.
John
Well, I believe I did say that I respect the views of a judge … It’s your mind that sees morality as a religous issue.
Moral: of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior.
If you need religion to tell you what’s right or wrong that’s your issue.
I disregard ANYONE who worships a work of fiction.
Priest, Minister, Rabbi, Sheikh, etc… they are all the same to me.
The funny thing is that all those religions (those that share a priest, a rabbi, or a minister) can factually prove that Jesus-the basis of religion did in fact exist. It is a historical fact. You cannot deny that. So, then you have to decide was he a liar, a lunatic or truly LORD. Maybe you should check into the book “The case for Christ” it is about a man who was an atheist who set out to prove how God and Jesus are worthless and a myth (among other things) yet when he researched it more, he came to a totally different assessment.
Like a previous poster said. I hope you don’t teach that to your kids. NO wonder our wourld is so messed up and our schools too. “Crazy APples Crazy Trees”.
Why is it that whenever there is a thread about negative experiences with a company or product or LBS some people feel they should put their positive experiences in the thread? Can’t we have a thread to vent and can’t those people simply start one to praise?
A question for those calling the tire guy a thief: Do you think it is ok when the store takes too much money for a product and does not fix the mistake? Isn’t that the same as paying too little?