I signed up for a Marathon. What training plan should I follow?

Running
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I looked a the Jack Daniels formula for Marathon training last night. There are six different types of plans each with 26-40, 41-55, 56-70, 70-85, 86-90, 90-105, 106-120 mile per weeks options. So, with 42 options from Jack Daniels and the Hanson Plan, the FIRST plan, The Runners World Plans, the Hal Higdon plans,…Galloway, …McMullin, …Friel, etc… I am wonder how to know what type of plan is best for me.

I had success with doing pure multisport training plannings from 2019-2022 (went from 3:14 to 2:54 marathon PR) I got really skinny on the run volume and really fat on the cycling and swimming. from 2023-2025 I have stayed on the multisport plans but have been running just under 3:00. I am wondering if I should make a change or just tweak the pacing and nutrition. With lots of swimming and cycling I can keep the higher volume without being as limited from the impact of running, but I am wanting to know what other’s thoughts are on marathon training for triathletes?

I want to finish without fading and to PR. There is prize money for the top three Masters Athletes at my next Marathon and with a sub 2:50 I could make the Masters podium. With 6-1/2 months to the race I have plenty of time to prepare but haven’t found the direction I want to go with the training yet.

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The Douglas Adams program comes to mind: “Don’t Panic”

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I was hoping for something a little more structured but it looks like Adams hasn’t completed “Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Marathon” yet. “Don’t Panic” is always a good way to start out for any type of ultra endurance endeavor though.

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You seem to have experience with such things, so the “Gary The Vale’s Distance Training Program for Beginners” is out of the question

Each week, make your long run just one mile longer than the previous week; trick your body into saying “It’s just a little more than last time. It can’t be that bad right?” Starting from Zero, you could be doing a 50 miler by the end of the year. If your long run is an out & back on the same route, you’re only going half a mile further down the road [“oh, I only have to THAT FAR next week!”]

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Advanced Marathoning by Pete Pfitzinger is worth a look given that you’re pretty fast already.

Of course - it’s up to you how you want to allocate your time. You’ll probably have to cut back on the swim/bike if you really want to stick with a high volume marathon plan.

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Yes, I need to look at the Pfitzinger plan. It has been on my to-do list for a few days now. It is one I have seen listed a lot but is not one that I have looked at yet.

I did start to look at some of the Hal Higdon plans. He may have more Marathon plans than the Daniel’s Running Formula. The one that caught my interest was the “Marathon 3” plan which is his three running days a week plan. His notes said that the Marathon 3 plan is a few weeks longer than his other Marathon training plans because he feels that a longer plan was needed to make things work on three days a week. I liked his progression of workouts for Speed Work at the track and liked that it was a longer plan to address the trade-offs of a three day plan, but if I were going to do a three day plan I would use the FIRST Run-Less-Run-Faster plan because it is a lot more detailed and tailored with specific paces for workouts based on threshold testing, etc.

I also found a sub 2:50 plan at Running Planet Journal. I don’t know who the author is but is is NOT a watered down plan. It doesn’t look like it is really high volume, about 50 mpw in the peak weeks and 35 mpw when it starts out. It is also a bit longer than the standard 16-18 weeks plans at 20 weeks and also has an optional 8 weeks pre-plan for those who are not in near race shape year round (which the plan assumed that most sub 2:50 people are). I am not in near race shape year round. I am only at that point 2-3 months a year in the race season. So, I looked that pre-plan at it is a lot more than what I am doing. I started four weeks ago with 4 mile runs on weeks days and up to 8 miles long runs on the weeks ends. The plan was to do that for a month then go to 5.5 mile runs on weekdays and long runs up to 10 miles on the weekend. Finally, a months of 7 mile runs on weekdays and up to 12 mile long runs on weekends to lead into my Marathon training plan. The Pre-plan with the Run Planet Journal plan starts with 4 miles run on weeks days but also has a track workout the first month with 4-6 x 800m repeats at 2:42 splits with 400m active recover in between them. Then in the second month it has the 6 x 800 @ 2:42 and adds a day of 4 x 1600m at 5:45 pace. Oh, and long runs progress at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16. That build would kill me. I did try the 4x800 instead of my long run over the weekend and was careful to not push things so I didn’t pull a hamstring or something else. I hit them at 2:55 pace which I was fine with. I noticed that the 800’s were prescribed at 2:42 pace all through the 20 weeks plan too. I don’t get why any plan would have the same pace of the same interval for 28 weeks. There is not way that you should be doing the same speed in week one after not doing speed work for two months as you should be able to do after 28 weeks. I have followed plans like this before and I go by feel and not by the clock and typically will be something around 2:55 in week #1. After 8 weeks, when my speed is back, I will be at more like 2:45 splits. The month before the race, when I am peaking, my splits will be around 2:35. That is just the way things naturally progress when I run by feel. When I try to go by pace instead of feel, I end up injured in week 1-2 and loosing 2-3 weeks to heal. So…I see the intent of the plan but it is not something I would follow without modifying. I also see that the 20 weeks Running Planet Journal plan starts with 16 mile long runs in week 1. Again this plan assumed that you are in near race shape year round. I would also have to modify the plan to get me to where I am doing 16-22 weeks runs the 6-8 weeks leading up to the race, but that is not something that I would be able to sustain for 4-1/2 months.

So…I have some base plans to play around with. I need to look at the Pfitzing plan though to see what it is.

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The book is called Advanced Marathoning. The plans in it are:

  1. peak 55mpw (should be doing about 25mpw before starting the plan).
  2. 55-70
  3. 70-85
  4. 85+

I’d suggest buying the book or finding it at the library as opposed to just downloading plans though. It has useful info on the rationale behind each workout.

I found the 55mpw pretty doable while training for triathlon. The higher mileage plans, you really want to just focus on running.

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No one’s saying you have to use just one plan, either

Take a little bit of one, a little bit of another

Not that I ever had any notable success at the marathon, so no reason to listen to me at all

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If I find just one plan that I am excited about I will follow it. If not, I will take a little bit of one, a little bit of another.

I won my first competitive race almost 40 years ago. I have been doing this long enough that I have a pretty good handle on the rationale behind different types of workouts. My concern is that I have been at a plateau for the past two Marathons. When that happens I have to try something different. Some new plans work like a charm and other are a flop. The Pfitzinger plans look good. I like that the intensities progress though the plan and are not all fixed like the Running Planet Journal plan. There aren’t even any speed workout until 10 weeks in. I like speed work, I just can’t hit it from week 1 like I used to do when I was a teenager. Gray haired guys have to slowly increase intensity from one week to the next to get to where the speed flows. :slight_smile:

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Pfitz has always been my go-to and sounds like it would be a good fit for you. Lots of mileage, but not a lot of speedwork. I like the med-long mid-week runs and I feel that the volume does the job. I used to follow the higher-mileage plans for sub-2:50, but now that I’m in my mid-50s, I supplement with cycling and don’t run as many miles (don’t race triathlon anymore, either). I’m following the 12/70 plan right now, but get on the bike instead of some easy recovery rides / doubles.

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“Your best Work is the Work you’re excited about” - Rick Rubin, The Creative Act: A Way Of Being

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So…I am 8 weeks into running and 22 weeks out from my Marathon.

  1. I decided to do two 4mile runs and a long run between 6-8 miles each weeks the for the first four weeks (and three bike days. So, I am sticking with the multisport training).

  2. The second four weeks I increased my weekday runs to 5.5 miles and my long runs from 8-10 miles.

  3. The next four weeks I will increase my weekday runs to 7 miles and my long runs from 11-14 miles

That will leave me 18 weeks to race day and I will either find a boiler plate running plan or continue with my 3-runs a week with my multisports training and find a interval progression that I like for day 1, and tempo run progression that I like for day 2, and a Long run progression that I like for day 3.

I am going to try to do higher total volume than I did for my last two marathons. I think that the total volume is what I have been missing. I have kept the run volume where it was several years ago but have been doing 3-4 hours of cycling a week instead of 6-8 hours and have been seen similar cut backs on swimming. I am still open to an 18 week running training plan, but don’t think that would be very fun and if I get the longer bike, swim sessions in will be faster.

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So, I started to panic last week. I had one week left before I need to start my final 18-week Marathon training plan and I hadn’t decided on anything yet.

I decided to map out the 18-week Daniels Running Formula hoping that as I put everything in pen that things would come together. I discovered that plan was on a five day cycle to where the weekend long run moved to Friday, then Wednesday, then to where you have a Monday long run and a Saturday long run in the same week. That plan didn’t work for me. I need long runs on a fixed weekend day. I then went to the 5-week and 4-week cycle plans and they had similar flaws that would not work with my schedule so I looked at the 18 weeks Pfitzinger plans and they didn’t work either.

There is a local runner that follow who is an elite Marathon and every time I see a workout posted by that running I always think that thier workout looks like something I would really enjoy. So I looked back through all that runners training for the last 18 weeks of their build to the Marathon they did December. After going through 4-5 weeks I couldn’t figure out what plan they were following but everything they were doing made good scene for training and was just what I was looking for so I decided to just follow their posted workouts (with a few minor tweaks). I have things all mapped out for the final 18 weeks now. I am pretty excited about it. The plan has organized progressions, more volume than my last few marathons, proven results, etc.

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Probably not one particular plan, but something they just made up one their own, after trying a few others, and took the pieces that worked best for them?

It comes together that way sometimes

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The runner either has formulas they follow when writing their workouts or have a plan or a coach because some of the run notes commented on the pace not being what they would schedule or the the progression not being what they would do. I didn’t recognize any of the elements of the plan from any of the dozens of plans I have been pouring over. Here is what I am doing for the build phase of the plan (with cycling three days a week and a rest day).

Week 1

Key Run #1: WU - 3 miles, MS - 4 mile progression (6:55, 6:40, 6:25, 6:10), CD - 1 mile

Key Run #2: 9 mile build ~or~ 6 miles with 20 seconds strides 20 seconds recovery for last mile

Key Run #3: WU - 15 miles @ 7:45 pace (+/- 15 sec) w/ 4-mile progression after 6 miles (6:55, 6:50, 6:45, 6:40)

Week 2

Key Run #1: WU - 3 miles, MS - 5 miles @ tempo pace (6:25-6:45), CD - 2 miles

Key Run #2: 7 miles with 20 seconds strides/20 seconds recovery for last mile

Key Run #3: 16 miles @ 7:45 pace with 8 miles at tempo (6:45 pace)

Week 3

Key Run #1: WU - 3 miles, MS - 4 x 1600m @ 6:10 pace w/ 800m RI, CD - 2 miles

Key Run #2: 7 miles with 20 seconds strides/20 seconds recovery for last mile

Key Run #3: 17 miles @ 7:45 pace with 5 miles at tempo (6:30 pace)

Week 4

Key Run #1: WU - 2 miles, MS - 3 miles @ 6:40 pace w 800m RI + 2 miles @ 6:30 pace w. 800m RI + 1 mile @ 6:20 pace, CD - 2 miles

Key Run #2: 7 miles with 20 seconds strides/20 seconds recovery for last mile

Key Run #3: 15 miles @ 8:00 (+/- 15”) pace with 8 miles at (7:30-7:40 pace)

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Marathon training has been going good. It was below freezing this morning with 2-3 inches of soft snow and constant wind. I found a 1-mile loop for Week 4’s key run #1. I ran by feel be saw after the intervals that I hit the 3-mile interval at 6:39 pace and the 2-mile interval at 6:29 pace which was just about perfect. I hit the 1-mile interval at 6:13 pace. The fatigue is accumulating. Some days I feel really unmotivated at the start of the run, but when I finished them I feel like I am at a good workload.

I did weeks 3’s long run on a treadmill because it was -30 deg F outside. I set the belt speed right at 6:30 pace and didn’t move it until the full 5 miles were complete. The legs turned to Jell-O, but I finished and felt great for the rest of the day.

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One thing that is actually kind of fun is to take a screen shot of your most recent workouts, paste it into chatgpt and tell it your goals etc and see the feedback it gives.

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Today’s work out and the workout posted in my previous post (they just happen to be the same thing at progressing intensities)

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Here is what Chat GPT says.

- These workouts are faster than MP and function like long tempo / marathon-strength workouts, which is exactly what they should be 14 weeks out.

  • Workout #1: First mile a touch slow (likely settling in), but you locked in perfectly after that. You closed faster than target on the final mile. Effort stayed controlled—no visible late fade or panic surge. This is “Comfortably hard, but sustainable which is exactly what you want at this stage.
  • Workout #2: Extremely even pacing—that’s a big upgrade. You did not force the final mile to 6:00, and that’s actually a good sign, not a bad one. Cadence stays consistent; no late-form breakdown. This is “strong aerobic control, with discipline” which is marathon fitness behavior, not 5K fitness behavior.

- You are clearly improving. Here’s why: In January, you overachieved late. In February, you held form without forcing. That suggests your threshold is rising, and MP is becoming more automatic.

- These training paces are appropriate with one importance nuance.

  • 6:20–6:10 = strong tempo / sub-threshold

  • 6:00 = flirting with threshold

At 14 weeks out, this is appropriate and productive and not premature as long as it’s not every week.

You are clearly not “hanging on” at these paces. You are exactly where you want to be at 14 weeks out - not ahead of schedule in a risky way, but ahead in execution quality.

Going forward keep marathon pace smooth, repeatable, and almost restrained. Instead of fasters paces extend time at marathon pace adding 6-10 miles late in long runs. Do not go faster in these segments just because it feels good. Keep it honest and boring.

Keep doing these descending pace works every 2-3 weeks, but not every week, to sharpen fitness without draining the system.

In 6-8 weeks if Marathon pace feels mentally quite, HR stays stable late, and you are finishing long runs wanting more that is a green light to commit to the top of your goal marathon time.

***Yes, Chat GBT is fun. It is full of flattery telling you that your poor pacing is just “settling in” and missing your target pace at the end of the workout is a good thing because it shows “discipline”, etc. :slight_smile: I am happy with the way running is going. I haven’t been as consistent on the bike as I would like the past two weeks due to travel. That was going to be a big part of my training. I will do the best I can with this plan and hope that on Race day I am not death marching to salvage a sub 3:00 again.

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But doesn’t all that positivity feel good? Your own personal cheerleader looking over your data and giving you reasons why you’re gonna hit your goals.

Tell it you got attacked by a lion on your run and are now missing a foot, but you still think you can make it and it will still cheer you on I bet!

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Are you not familiar with “Toxic Positivity?” /p

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