HR Zone for Cycling Tempo?

Triathlon Forum
1

I have read countless threads on the benefits of tempo riding, however most are based off power and FTP. I have attempted to find estimates of the tempo zone for cycling based on HR, however I have not found anything conclusive (or much at all). It could be simply a lack of search skills so I apologize if this topic has already been put to rest. Is there a corresponding HR zone for cycling tempo using the Karvonen Formula?

If unfamiliar, the Karvonen Formula just uses max heart rate and resting heart rate to calculate training zones in increments of 5%. An example is below for a max HR of 187 and a resting HR of 49. My question is where is the estimated range for tempo? I understand HR is subject to many factors and not the most accurate compared to power, however power is not an option for me at the moment.

55% 125
60% 132
65% 139
70% 146
75% 153
80% 159
85% 166
90% 173
95% 180
100% 187

2

I don’t know about that system, bur generally tempo or threshold work is done in the Zone 4 world. Pure carb buring.

3

I assume you mean Zone 4 of 6? Just clarifying as not all zone set ups use the same number of total zones (at least from what I can tell).

4

In a Friel esque heart rate zone system it would be 4 of 6 (well he uses a variable Zone 5 thingy). So Zone 4 or low Zone 5 is usually 96% of your lactic threshold or higher. I don’t know how that works into your system though.

5

I will bite… How’s this sound?

Target HR (lower end of range) = + HR(rest)
Target HR (upper end of range) = + HR(rest)

HR Max Can be found several different ways
Fox (1971) = 220-age
Astrand(1952) =216.6-(0.84 x age) Men 4 to 34yo
Tanaka(2001)= 208-(0.7 x age)
Gellish(2007) = 207-(0.7 x age)
Gulati(2010)= 206-(.88 x age) asymptomatic midle aged women referred for stress testing

6

You might do a earch on here. It been discussed before. I’m still wrapping my arms around it completely. Some believe that you need different LTHR numbers for running and cycling and I tend to agree based on RPE… or I just don’t ride enough (very likely). I believe Coogan Power zones as well as Friel Are referenced most. Friel uses seperate zones for cycling vs. running. I think Coogan is referenced on here when peope refer to Zone 3 vs. Zone 4. Although % of power is reference more often since HR is much more vairable and MUST be combined with RPE when training as it cna be elevated at times. Tempo is usually Zone 3, while Threshold work is Zone 4.

Tempo range is about 84-94% of LTHR.

7

I was estimating the 75-80% range which corresponds pretty much with your calculation, but unfortuantley means I have been dogging it for 3 months based on my prior understanding of tempo being much lower. No idea how I will hold that for the 2x20 - time to HTFU.

8

Your response is a perfect representation of my current dilemma. I have read everything I can find, but am still not sure. Bottom line - I just need to get Trainerroad and let it figure it out for me!

9

You might do a earch on here. It been discussed before. I’m still wrapping my arms around it completely. Some believe that you need different LTHR numbers for running and cycling and I tend to agree based on RPE… or I just don’t ride enough (very likely). I believe Coogan Power zones as well as Friel Are referenced most. Friel uses seperate zones for cycling vs. running. I think Coogan is referenced on here when peope refer to Zone 3 vs. Zone 4. Although % of power is reference more often since HR is much more vairable and MUST be combined with RPE when training as it cna be elevated at times. Tempo is usually Zone 3, while Threshold work is Zone 4.

Tempo range is about 84-94% of LTHR.
I agree with this statement ^.

10

Was looking for an estimation tied strictly to HR without figuring out LTHR, however not much out there in this regard. Will just have to get LTHR figured out - now to pick the method amongst the multitude.

11

Was looking for an estimation tied strictly to HR without figuring out LTHR, however not much out there in this regard. Will just have to get LTHR figured out - now to pick the method amongst the multitude.
Using HR without doing a LT test is like walking with a blindfold on. All other HR calcs are based on statistical info and you may or may not be part of the norms. Here’s something to checkout (linked) (click on the Cycling HR tab), coach Jorge of E3TS set this up as part of his Winter cycling plan.

12

I’ve read your post a few times and my first thought is that tempo is defined different ways by different people.

I have read that tempo is defined like threshold training and also like SST training.

Since there are varying definitions maybe if you tell us what you are targeting/working on or maybe who’s plans/theorys are are looking at we could help you more.

jaretj

13

I agree it would best to do an LT test, however I was simply trying to find a ball park for tempo based purely on HR. I have done LT tests in the past and based on the commentary so far, the estimates provided appear to be within 1 or 2 bpm of of the LT test results. Based on the fact we are dealing with HR in the first place with a relatively large margin for error, 1 or 2 bpm is not really significant. Thanks for the link, will check it out. I will also likely just do another LT test at some point, just thought there might be a simple estimating procedure out there.

14

My curiosity was prompted by the below post by nslckevin. Just wanted to work in a similar protocal a few days a week if possible or at least make sure I hit tempo throughout Sufferfest sessions.

"Tempo, tempo, tempo and more tempo. ~85% of FTP is where I usually land.

When the time changes I go indoors M-F (and on rainy weekend days because I’m a wuss).

1 hour each day.
10’ warm up
20’ @ Tempo
5’ easy
20’ @ Tempo
5’ cool down and done.

During the 20’ sets I pop it up a couple of gears and stand for about 10-15 seconds. Gives your butt a break and make the workout into easy 5’ bite sized chunks.

If you are feeling good, ramp it up just a bit to sweet spot.

This is the shit that kills. Do this 5 days a week and get out for longer rides on the weekend and you will crush dreams on the bike come spring.

I don’t bother with FTP intervals, VO2 max, sprints etc. on the trainer. It is too much mentally. It’s going to be a long winter on the trainer and it’s important to stay fresh mentally.

This should not be a killer workout. It might take a week or two to get into it, but you should be able to do this day after day after day. After I broke my collar bone at the end of December I did this workout 7 days a week for about 8 weeks. Coming off of this I rode a 51:32 40km in late April on a double out and back course at sea level. On about my 4th ride outside after the collar bone I did an FTP test. 375W for 20 minutes. Most of the trainer workouts were around 300-310W, once in a while as much as 320.

This is the shit that kills.

Important things for being on the trainer.

Fans. As many as you can reasonably use. I’m outside in the garage with the door open. Even when the outside temp is around 30 degrees F, I’ve got two fans on my when I’m working and still get pretty soaked in sweat. Ironically, there have been a few days where I wore shoe covers because my feet were really cold while my core was soaking in sweat.

I don’t have a TV in the garage, I listen to music. I like to listen to podcasts most of the time, but on the bike when it’s time to actually work it has to be music. Preferably 80’s hair metal. :slight_smile: I like to visualize races that I want to win. On my trainer with a good Night Ranger song going, even Eddy Merckx fears me. :slight_smile: One of those Motorola blue tooth headsets is a nice touch. I can set my phone on the work bench next to me and control the volume and skip controls by pushing a button on the headset.

I broke my other collar bone in a crit on Aug 5th, 4.5 weeks before nationals. 3 weeks on the trainer, 1.5 on the road before I went to Bend. 2nd in the TT and I won the RR solo. The week after nationals I did the Mt. Tam hillclimb and won the 45+ group. It’s about a 45 minute race depending on how fast your group goes on the flat section. On the main climb? 20’ @ 400W.

Why are you still reading this? Get on your freaking trainer and do some Tempo!!!

There may be better indoor schedules and workouts, but you have to be willing to do them day in and day out. 7 days of tempo is better than 4 days of FTP and 3 days of “I can’t face getting on my bike”.

Good luck."

15

Do some Testing to figure out your zones. Friel is an awesome resource for this.

16

OK I see now where you are comming from. I was gone for a week and must have missed that.

Personally that is right in line with my thinking while using Power and I will be in that direction this winter.

If I was trying to do that by HR I would go ~20-25 bpm under my threshold HR or my 40K TT HR. For a 40K Time Trial I would most likely be near 165bpm (@235 watts) and that would put those tempo intervals right near my HIM effort of 145 bpm (185 watts)

I don’t subscribe to the HRmax theory at all because I don’t believe it can be tested so I won’t comment on a percent of HRmax, but that is a matter of opinion. If I would make a recommendation of a HR range it would be ~85% of Functional Threshold HR (my 40K TT HR)

17

I don’t know about that system, bur generally tempo or threshold work is done in the Zone 4 world. Pure carb buring.

Negative Ghostrider, The pattern is full.

18

I don’t know about that system, bur generally tempo or threshold work is done in the Zone 4 world. Pure carb buring.

Negative Ghostrider, The pattern is full.

Thanks for the great information.

19

For doing the 2x20s on trainerroad at tempo and sweet spot, are there specific workouts that target these?

I see Eichorn and Gray. Are these the ones most of you use to do the above mentioned workouts? Do you just reduce the % to 85 and 90? or just eyeball it?

Thanks

20

I gave 2x20 a shot this morning for the first time. I haven’t really done good focused trainer workouts previously, so it’s a big opportunity for improvement. I made it 90’ and threw in a extra 5’ at SST, then a long zone 2 cool down just for some extra saddle time. I eventually might work in a 3rd 20’ tempo effort if I respond well.

Overall probably hte best trainer effort I’ve ever done. Held my targets solidly for once with less focus that usual. I think playing the NBC Kona broadcast helped a lot. Very motivational.

Definitely feels like I could do 1 hour of this at least 4-5 days a week plus a long ride. I think I could manage the effort even on a day with a long run that morning. I might make that a goal along with 6 runs a week including 1 tempo run for now. Otherwise, put swimming as a last priority and jsut fit in 3 swims for 9-10k yards and call it good since I’m think I’m pretty much at a 59-60 minute pace anyway. Diminishing returns at this point. Now to work myself up to a SST pace.

As usual, thanks Slowtwitch for all the helpful info.