Workout 1
A.M. 2.4 mi constant swim slightly slower than IM pace. Total swim yardage 5000
Workout 2
P.M. 6X4min Z5 w/ 2 min R.I. then 1 hour .85-.90%. Total Ride time 2 hours
Workout 3
P.M. 8-10 mi. IM pace
The key is not to eat or drink any carbs during or after workout 2 and get used to running at IM pace totally trashed. I know it sounds crazy and stupid but so is running a marathon after 112 miles.
How much time between workout 2 and 3?
In any case, I’d hazard to guess that this workout would be so effective that you would trash your training scheduled for the following day; or, maybe and/or, your run would suck.
If you are training to be totally trashed coming off the bike in an IM, then you should probably rethink your training.
Hey … that’s what I did last thursday! Except the swim was harder. You been stalking me or something?
Either you’re doing this on a weekend, or you have no job and/or family. Which is it? 
yeah, with the group i train with it seems to me that I am the only one that works. everybody seems to be able to do middle of the day and middle of the week long work outs. i have to do my long work outs on the weekends!!!
This was mine from yesterday.
#1 3000m morning swim with 10x200 main set
#2 2 hours bike trainer at noon
#3 late afternoon, rode bike 15 miles to 5k. crosscountry race and then 15 miles home.
And then got up this morning @ 04:00 and did a 9 mile run before work.
No family and only work 10 days a month.
Well, I can guarantee that if I did 4 hrs of training on zero carbs, I would be single very very quickly 
.
The key is not to eat or drink any carbs during or after workout 2 and get used to running at IM pace totally trashed. I know it sounds crazy and stupid but so is running a marathon after 112 miles.
That just sounds bizarre. I can understand doing a longish run after a hard bike (last week I did an 80-8 brick and today I did a 25-16 brick) to get used to running on tired legs. But no nutrition? So you can learn how to bonk hard? Are you planning on doing that in the race? I fail to see how this is race specific training.
-Colin
You are trying to train your body to do exactly what? Catabolize the muscle you’ll need to actually train? Feel like crap? This is a bad idea. Your workout will suck, and then your recovery will suck, so your workouts for the next couple days will also suck. If you want to make your workout “hard,” eat appropriately and then go run 8-10 miles at the pace that guys who win Ironmans run at.
I agree with Rappstar. Totally stupid. One doesn’t have to do an ironman in training. Do you know any fast marathoners who run 26.2 at race pace in a workout ever? Good workout to brag on ST or pad the training log, but that doesn’t do it on race day.
No kidding. The ideal workouts are hard ones that you can recover from in 1 day, not trying to screw up your entire system and catabolize major muscle groups for 3 or 4 days after. But keep on doing those anyway, it’ll make you “tougher” in the eyes of ST. Probably not much faster…not compared to an intelligent training plan…but definitely “tougher”.
If you’re in my AG, then I strongly encourage you to do this workout, as often as possible.
Well first off I do this the day before a recovery day. I am not the only one who trains the body to run on low glycogen stores (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/rununiv/marathonlongrun.htm) read the long steady distance paragraph. I think this guy knows a thing or two about running. Also I would not do this day very often maybe once or twice before an ironman. One of the things I think we all forget is how hard the last 10-16 miles of the race gets. That feeling of oh no I don’t think I can run any more, my race is over. If you think 80 miles and an 8 mile run that you have built up to and are comfortable doing in training is all you need to “race” an ironman you are wrong. 95% of the time I train with proper nutrition and recover correctly but every once in a while I like to mix it up and make training feel different. I tend to come out of a workout like this knowing the difference between “bonking” and just getting tired. I actually learn more about nutrition by feeling a true bonk. Most people think they are “bonking” when actually they are just at the edge of the endurance envelope.
If I was trying to pad my log I would just go out and do a LSD 200 mile ride and make sure it took 12 hours. Oh yeah and 8-10 miles at ironman pace is hardly comparable to 26.2 miles at marathon pace.
Broccoli Mark, I think you are reading mcmillan wrong. He does not suggest that you train yourself to run on lowered glycogen stores by skipping recovery food between workouts. If you want to do the lowered glycogen thing, do it on your first workout of the day. It’s probably not necessary though, especially if you are doing three-a-days regularly. Finding your limits is all well and good, I agree with you there, but I don’t think dragging yourself through a bonk teaches you anything about your limits or increases fitness.
Moreover, I think the approach of wasting yourself doing this day and then having to take a recovery day is self defeating. You do five hours this day and maybe an hour the next day. But if you backed it off a little, kept on the nutrition, etc, you could do four hours this day and then do it all again the next day. Eight hours. 60% more with a balanced program.
This got me thinking about something I used to do when I played golf. I used to practice hitting shots from befind trees, bad lies, in divots, etc. The whole point to doing this was to not be freaked out when this happened during a tournament because if you played enough tournaments something like this always happens. You get in a bad situation and you need the mental strenght to not let it get the best of you. Well I guess my attempt is to try to teach myself not to freak out when things get bad and keep going even though things are not exactally the way you planned them, and this is what I believe every great ironman champion has the ability to tap into. Is this workout going to make me faster, no. But it might give me a mental edge knowing I can handle a situation when things are really getting tough. The reason I like it is it is much safer injury wise than a 100 mile ride and 8-10 mile run.
I agree with you, and that is how I train almost all of the time. I do train a lot and know how to recover. I also know that a workout like this is going to screw up my next day which is why I would not attempt this very often.
On the daniels point, I would enter this workout fully recovered from the morning workout. 2.4 miles at an easy pace is not a big deal recovery wise. And I know I am really pushing the limits of my glycogen stores, but how is this any different that pushing my endurance limits. http://www.triathloncoach.com/articles/m2fuel.html here is another article about training on low glycogen levels and another way of looking at training the body to prefer fat as opposed to carbs. I guess I agree with everyone that this is a stupid workout if you are trying to get faster. It is not going to make me stronger physically but there may be a postitve side to this workout mentally
It’s a good point … and you do mention repeatedly that you hardly ever do stuff like this, which is good, because as a general rule it’s a bad idea. In general, if you’re not training to get faster, why train at all? But I see the value of reminding yourself how to suffer from time to time. With high volume training it is definitely easy to get into a rut.
Now if I were your coach, I would forbid you to do these workouts. Training your body to preferentially burn fat is fine, but what’s the point? Races have plenty of food. You have pockets. The race is about getting to the finish line fastest, not who burns the least carbohydrate. I really do respect your position on learning how to suffer, but I would save it for races, train to get faster, and be really careful about getting caught up in esoteric peripheral goals.
Will-
If you’re looking for an athlete to coach who loves to suffer in races, let me know!
Jodi
is the point of this thread to compare training mistakes and laugh at each other for being total idiots?
Well first off I do this the day before a recovery day. I am not the only one who trains the body to run on low glycogen stores (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/.../marathonlongrun.htm) read the long steady distance paragraph. I think this guy knows a thing or two about running. Also I would not do this day very often maybe once or twice before an ironman. One of the things I think we all forget is how hard the last 10-16 miles of the race gets. That feeling of oh no I don’t think I can run any more, my race is over. If you think 80 miles and an 8 mile run that you have built up to and are comfortable doing in training is all you need to “race” an ironman you are wrong. 95% of the time I train with proper nutrition and recover correctly but every once in a while I like to mix it up and make training feel different. I tend to come out of a workout like this knowing the difference between “bonking” and just getting tired. I actually learn more about nutrition by feeling a true bonk. Most people think they are “bonking” when actually they are just at the edge of the endurance envelope.
If I was trying to pad my log I would just go out and do a LSD 200 mile ride and make sure it took 12 hours. Oh yeah and 8-10 miles at ironman pace is hardly comparable to 26.2 miles at marathon pace.
Good post Mark.
Like you , I train virtually always , nutritionally prepared. I do think however , it is beneficial , to occasionally train way outr of the comfort zone.
There is obviously a difference running the third segment ( 8-10 miles ) “hard” like an IM Pro and running it " in a nutritional deficit". I find these runs to be exceptionally educational as I really have to focus mind to continue putting one foot in front of the other , stay motivated and dig deep. I rarely find this “survival” mode outside of racing. Running “empty” per se really works the mind to stay strong , focused and develope the confidence in races. I should add , that these are performed rarely and post-training nutrition is ready and waiting. This includes a protein drink of 30 grams of protein per serving , branch-chain aminos added with 2 bananas. I will also take 2-3000 VitC, as well as my magesium/ potassium supplement and 2 or 3 Endurolytes. To be consumed whilst sitting on the shower floor or standing , depending upon available energy
My coach has often has me do some runs on legs that were essentialled thrashed from accumulated fatigue from 5-10 days of prior heavy training. Although I am nutritionally prepared and hydrated , it is more a physical pain isolated to the legs rather than the entire body.
I hope my point is coming across clearly ?
I really noticed the difference in my last 2 IM’s.