Regardless of how well it predicts performance, I am curious how trainable this number is?
Secondly, while performance (i.e. race times) can increase at a pretty steady rate for years, does vo2 max also steadily increase over this time period at a steady rate? Or will you top out your vo2 max well before you top out actual performance?
Regardless of how well it predicts performance, I am curious how trainable this number is?
Secondly, while performance (i.e. race times) can increase at a pretty steady rate for years, does vo2 max also steadily increase over this time period at a steady rate? Or will you top out your vo2 max well before you top out actual performance?
First if you have pounds to lose yes highly modifiable (O2 per kG, maybe not total 02)
Second if you have low Iron yes highly modifiable…within 3-4 weeks…or less.
Third…did you get fired, retired “re-allocated” etc? then yes highly, modifiable. (more time to train)
Unless you’re skinny and operating at a pretty high level VO2 is usually not your limiter.
Maurice
And more time to rest 
Thing is the more mitochondria you have, the more O2 they can absorb.
And you need a decent capillary network to get the o2 there. And you need a decent heart to pump it.
And you’ll need some decent fuel availability to mix with that o2 to get ignition.
So the more o2 you can absorb, the higher your vo2 max, by definition.
Its obviously more complicated than that with so much biochem going on in those muscles but I like the simplicty of this viewpoint. When I read all this stuff about vo2 being genetic and theres naff all you can do about it, thats depressing. I’d prefer my explanation, even if it is a load of rubbish
correct me if im wrong, but the positive in all of this, is that you can train your body to get to near V02 and sustain it for longer. Joe Blow may have a higher V02 than me, but due to my training, I may be able to hold a higher V02 for a longer duration than him.
Regardless of how well it predicts performance, I am curious how trainable this number is?
Secondly, while performance (i.e. race times) can increase at a pretty steady rate for years, does vo2 max also steadily increase over this time period at a steady rate? Or will you top out your vo2 max well before you top out actual performance?
People are a little confused about this. If you are lean and have a VO2 max of 45 ml/kg/min, you are probably not going to be world class or even elite. If you have a VO2 max in the 70s, regardless of training status, you have a ticket to the show. Whether you can become a world class athlete or elite is going to be determined primarily by other factors at that point. VO2 max matters a lot, if you have a low one.
correct me if im wrong, but the positive in all of this, is that you can train your body to get to near V02 and sustain it for longer. Joe Blow may have a higher V02 than me, but due to my training, I may be able to hold a higher V02 for a longer duration than him.
Correct, training does affect near-VO2max performances. This is what OP is addressing when he says, ‘whether it affects performance or not.’ The idea is just what you described. VO2max is an interesting thing physiologically. Most of the time, as you increase gradually, the body responds gradually. There are a few significant exceptions, and they’re obvious enough that you already know them: lactate threshold and ventilatory threshold, for example. VO2max is similar is that you can do a lot of high-intensity intervals without hitting that VO2max. You’ll get some training benefit from that, but you won’t be pushing VO2max as far as you can until you’re doing true VO2max training.
Keep in mind that a very well trained triathlete can have an FTP close to 90% of VO2max. Theoretically, that person could have a low VO2 max because it is untrained. However, that person will probably not be that well trained without high-intensity work.
Secondly, while performance (i.e. race times) can increase at a pretty steady rate for years, does vo2 max also steadily increase over this time period at a steady rate? Or will you top out your vo2 max well before you top out actual performance?
I think you nailed it. Reaching potential VO2max requires a lot of very specific training that a triathlete is unlikely to do (since most of their racing will be at, say, 80-85% of VO2max). Interestingly, one of the biggest training adaptations that occurs with VO2 max training is adaptation of the intercostal (rib) muscles. As your breathing rate increases, the rib muscles’ energetic needs increase exponentially. At a VO2 max effort, they can use a full 15% of VO2.
Short answer: yes, VO2max is probably highly trainable for your average triathlete. Remember that as you get older, VO2max will decrease steadily, but sub-VO2max ability decrease at a much lower rate.
People are a little confused about this. If you are lean and have a VO2 max of 45 ml/kg/min, you are probably not going to be world class or even elite. If you have a VO2 max in the 70s, regardless of training status, you have a ticket to the show. Whether you can become a world class athlete or elite is going to be determined primarily by other factors at that point. VO2 max matters a lot, if you have a low one.
This is partially why I asked. I’m curious to know where I stand and wondering if testing vo2 max is still meaningful if you’re not currently in top form? Just want to know if I’ll always be stuck in mediocrity or if there is a window of opportunity for high level performance. One can dream… (and of course yes one way to answer this question much more directly is to train hard for a long time and see what happens). Still curious though. If I find my vo2 max is 45 I can stop pretending to be a serious triathlete.
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
IIRC ~ 15% of the population are nonresponders to training who won’t increase their VO2 max significantly with any amount of training. The bulk of humans will be able to bump theirs up 10 to 20% with appropriate training and a small group will be able to show on the order of 30% improvement. Most of the super responders start out with a lower end VO2 max so we don’t see folks starting with a 60 VO2 max and training that up to 80ml/kg.
The bulk of improvement in VO2 max an athlete will experience can be attained in 6 months of hard training with measurable improvement seen in just a few days…due mainly to blood volume expansion.
YMMV,
Hugh
People are a little confused about this. If you are lean and have a VO2 max of 45 ml/kg/min, you are probably not going to be world class or even elite. If you have a VO2 max in the 70s, regardless of training status, you have a ticket to the show. Whether you can become a world class athlete or elite is going to be determined primarily by other factors at that point. VO2 max matters a lot, if you have a low one.
This is partially why I asked. I’m curious to know where I stand and wondering if testing vo2 max is still meaningful if you’re not currently in top form? Just want to know if I’ll always be stuck in mediocrity or if there is a window of opportunity for high level performance. One can dream… (and of course yes one way to answer this question much more directly is to train hard for a long time and see what happens). Still curious though. If I find my vo2 max is 45 I can stop pretending to be a serious triathlete.
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
23% in 9 weeks…
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1981;13(1):17-20.
Time course of the adaptive responses of aerobic power and heart rate to training.
Hickson RC, Hagberg JM, Ehsani AA, Holloszy JO.
Abstract
Nine subjects participated in an exercise program for 40 min/day, 6 days/wk. The training work rates were kept constant for the first 4 wk. The work rates were then increased to a higher level and kept constant for an additional 5 wk. During both training periods, maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max) increased for the first 3 wk and then remained constant. The half times (tl/2) of the increases in VO2max during the two periods were 10.3 and 10.8 days. These results provide evidence that the adaptation to endurance exercise of the system(s) that limit VO2max is rapid, with a tl/2 of less than 11 days. The total increase in VO2max in the 9 wk of training was 23%. The decreases in the heart rate and blood lactate responses to a standard submaximal exercise test also occurred within the first 2 to 3 wk of each training period. Our results show that unless the training stimulus is increased, a high intensity daily exercise program does not result in a further increase in VO2max or further decreases in the blood lactate or heart rate responses to submaximal exercise after 3 wk.
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
IIRC ~ 15% of the population are nonresponders to training who won’t increase their VO2 max significantly with any amount of training. The bulk of humans will be able to bump theirs up 10 to 20% with appropriate training and a small group will be able to show on the order of 30% improvement. Most of the super responders start out with a lower end VO2 max so we don’t see folks starting with a 60 VO2 max and training that up to 80ml/kg.
The bulk of improvement in VO2 max an athlete will experience can be attained in 6 months of hard training with measurable improvement seen in just a few days…due mainly to blood volume expansion.
YMMV,
Hugh
I’ve read numerous times over the years that your “average untrained 18-29 yr old male” has an untrained VO2 max of about 40, which at your 30% implies improvement to about 52, which IIRC translates to around 10:00-ish for an all-out 1.5-mi run. I’ve seen several charts and/or equations that predict VO2 max from the 1.5 mi run time.
People are a little confused about this. If you are lean and have a VO2 max of 45 ml/kg/min, you are probably not going to be world class or even elite. If you have a VO2 max in the 70s, regardless of training status, you have a ticket to the show. Whether you can become a world class athlete or elite is going to be determined primarily by other factors at that point. VO2 max matters a lot, if you have a low one.
This is partially why I asked. I’m curious to know where I stand and wondering if testing vo2 max is still meaningful if you’re not currently in top form? Just want to know if I’ll always be stuck in mediocrity or if there is a window of opportunity for high level performance. One can dream… (and of course yes one way to answer this question much more directly is to train hard for a long time and see what happens). Still curious though. If I find my vo2 max is 45 I can stop pretending to be a serious triathlete.
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
23% in 9 weeks…
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1981;13(1):17-20.
Time course of the adaptive responses of aerobic power and heart rate to training.
Hickson RC, Hagberg JM, Ehsani AA, Holloszy JO.
Abstract
Nine subjects participated in an exercise program for 40 min/day, 6 days/wk. The training work rates were kept constant for the first 4 wk. The work rates were then increased to a higher level and kept constant for an additional 5 wk. During both training periods, maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max) increased for the first 3 wk and then remained constant. The half times (tl/2) of the increases in VO2max during the two periods were 10.3 and 10.8 days. These results provide evidence that the adaptation to endurance exercise of the system(s) that limit VO2max is rapid, with a tl/2 of less than 11 days. The total increase in VO2max in the 9 wk of training was 23%. The decreases in the heart rate and blood lactate responses to a standard submaximal exercise test also occurred within the first 2 to 3 wk of each training period. Our results show that unless the training stimulus is increased, a high intensity daily exercise program does not result in a further increase in VO2max or further decreases in the blood lactate or heart rate responses to submaximal exercise after 3 wk.
44% in 10 wk:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/838658
9% in 10 d:
A bit more seriously, here’s a good recent review:
People are a little confused about this. If you are lean and have a VO2 max of 45 ml/kg/min, you are probably not going to be world class or even elite. If you have a VO2 max in the 70s, regardless of training status, you have a ticket to the show. Whether you can become a world class athlete or elite is going to be determined primarily by other factors at that point. VO2 max matters a lot, if you have a low one.
This is partially why I asked. I’m curious to know where I stand and wondering if testing vo2 max is still meaningful if you’re not currently in top form? Just want to know if I’ll always be stuck in mediocrity or if there is a window of opportunity for high level performance. One can dream… (and of course yes one way to answer this question much more directly is to train hard for a long time and see what happens). Still curious though. If I find my vo2 max is 45 I can stop pretending to be a serious triathlete.
So let’s say for a particular individual A = “sedentary vo2 max” and B = “maximum trainable vo2 max” both at equal body weight, what is ((B - A) / A) * 100 ? 10%? 20%? In general, any ballpark estimate?
23% in 9 weeks…
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1981;13(1):17-20.
Time course of the adaptive responses of aerobic power and heart rate to training.
Hickson RC, Hagberg JM, Ehsani AA, Holloszy JO.
Abstract
Nine subjects participated in an exercise program for 40 min/day, 6 days/wk. The training work rates were kept constant for the first 4 wk. The work rates were then increased to a higher level and kept constant for an additional 5 wk. During both training periods, maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max) increased for the first 3 wk and then remained constant. The half times (tl/2) of the increases in VO2max during the two periods were 10.3 and 10.8 days. These results provide evidence that the adaptation to endurance exercise of the system(s) that limit VO2max is rapid, with a tl/2 of less than 11 days. The total increase in VO2max in the 9 wk of training was 23%. The decreases in the heart rate and blood lactate responses to a standard submaximal exercise test also occurred within the first 2 to 3 wk of each training period. Our results show that unless the training stimulus is increased, a high intensity daily exercise program does not result in a further increase in VO2max or further decreases in the blood lactate or heart rate responses to submaximal exercise after 3 wk.
To say 23% in 9 weeks is a tough sell. For the 9 individuals that participated in that study, the average was 23%. So much of your ability to increase VO2 is based on genetics. The individuals on the lower end of the spectrum have a much higher capacity for increasing their VO2 max than those with a starting point higher on the spectrum. This study has criticized by a number of different authors for methods, subjects, etc. Most studies report gains if the 5 to 10% range (Jones & Carter and Hickson & Colleagues to name a few). Yes, you can see an increase due to training. However it is very difficult to estimate how much of an increase an individual can expect.
Lactic threshold is typically a better predictor of performance and typically one that is considered more ‘trainable’ than Vo2 max.
Guess I should have typed faster, Andy…you beat me to it.
If I’m reading correctly, the 9 and 10 week test protocols are brutal - 3 days/week of 6 x 5 min VO2 max intervals on a trainer with 2 min recovery between, alternating with 3 days of 40 minutes running at race pace, then a day of rest. Who could sustain that for weeks on end? Apparently, not all of the test subjects could - it is noted that 2 developed shin splints and were forced to do the 40 min all out efforts on the trainer as well.
Brian
If I’m reading correctly, the 9 and 10 week test protocols are brutal - 3 days/week of 6 x 5 min VO2 max intervals on a trainer with 2 min recovery between, alternating with 3 days of 40 minutes running at race pace, then a day of rest. Who could sustain that for weeks on end? Apparently, not all of the test subjects could - it is noted that 2 developed shin splints and were forced to do the 40 min all out efforts on the trainer as well.
Well, Bob Hickson (may he rest in peace) was a football coach before he got into exercise physiology…
Another anecdote: I once ran into a fellow post-doc in Holloszy’s lab right after he’d updated Holloszy re. the results from the most recent sujbect in a training study we were doing together. He had a glum look on his face, so I asked him what had transpired. He explained that when he’d told Holloszy that their VO2max had increased by only 18%, Holloszy’s response (after a bit of a pause) was “That’s pathetic, Bob…pathetic.”
Genetics + 15% = VO2 Max.
Genetics + 15% = VO2 Max
Except that the trainability of VO2max also appears to have a genetic component. Thus, it becomes:
Variable baseline VO2max + variable improvement due to training = limit of VO2max
where the variable improvement could be anywhere from 0 to 60% (although typically 15-25%), depending upon initial training status, training program, age (at least at some point), etc.
My $.02
I’m 17 now, training 14-18hrs/week. I started endurance sports with cross country at age 14 after playing only contact sports (football, ice hockey, wrestling) from age 5-14.
My first all out 5k in a race was 22:07 off of 3 months of 20mpw. Daniels gives that VDOT = 44.
By the time I was 16, I was regularly dipping under 4:50 during 1500M xc loops in practice (race times in xc wouldn’t tell that story - I burnt myself in practice). Best mile was 4:55. Daniels gives VDOT = 61 for that mile.
My best xc 5k was 17:50 at 16 - I’m currently in much better shape off of tri training and running much faster across the board, but I haven’t run a 5k race. I’d be willing to bet that I could run 17:10-17:15ish (I no longer do speedwork). That’s a VDOT of 59.
Depending on whether you use the 61 or the 59, that’s a 25% to 28% improvement.
As far as whether it taps out - I’d say yes. Does performance tap out simultaneously? I don’t think so.
Cam Levins (13:15ish 5k/27:20 10k) said in an interview that he was tested at 62 after his first sub-4 mile. Derek Clayton (2:08 marathon) was tested at 69.7. It’s more about efficiency once you reach a certain point. More training = better economy (barring injury).
Keep at it kid. I wish I took this seriously when I was younger. Instead I partied while school and racing were not priorities. Now I just turned 28 and figured I’d make the best of what time I have left while I can still be “fast”. Going to ramp up to 20-ish hrs this season and see what happens.