i mostly target tts, but i am getting tired of not being able to make breaks because of my 1 min power sucking. my 20 min is over 5 w/kg, but my 1 min is only 7.8 w/kg.
is it realistic to try to add 100 watts or so to that over a winter?
Probably not as trainable as aerobic performance. (The slide below is from a talk a gave a couple of years ago, at which time I reviewed the literature to try to address such questions.)
Anyway, if you can sustain 5.3 W/kg for 20 min but are having problems making it into/creating breakaways, then it may be that you need to change tactics (or even teams), rather than trying to increase your short-term power.
thanks for the answer … i don’t suppose you can comment on the change of tactics you might have in mind? i suppose one would be trying for late breaks when less punch is needed, vs early ones, but a majority of races i do are won by early breaks.
it seems every time i want to hang with something i blow up around my one min power while it rolls away from me.
someone told me last time this happened “then stop looking at your power meter and pedal harder” … which actually makes me almost wonder if i’m just not suffering enough.
As a guy with a similar 1 min to FTP ratio as you (not quite as lopsided but I have worked at it) the tactics and techniques are crucial.
If you need to find an early break to win your races then field positioning is the name of the game. You need to put yourself in spots where you can hop on the wheel of the more powerful attacking riders. That usually means hanging around the back of the “arrow head” of the charging peleton and not any farther up. If you are too far up, the speed differential to the attacker will be too high by the time they get to you. If you are too far back you end up having to make a much longer effort to even get off the front with the move. Maybe you already know that stuff but don’t underestimate it.
Secondly as a more aerobically capable rider you also need to consider which are the better attacks for you to follow. I usually focus on following the more painful counter attacks when the race is already on the rivet. More often those are the ones that go anyways and it won’t require as much of an anaerobic dig to get separation. The key to making those attacks is skipping all those shitty opening volleys when it seems easy to make moves. You’ve got to just stay up near the front during those without wasting energy and then pounce when the going is tougher.
That is basic stuff but it takes some self control and skill to pull off. Its very possible for you though, I have made maybe 10 early breakaways this year in Cat 1, NRC and UCI races and maybe exceeded 8 w/kg for 1 minute in only 2 or 3 of those efforts.
Yes it is very trainable, i have added 200w over the last two road racing seasons and continue to see improvements. From a w/Kg perspective your number is a bit low to handle the hard attacks, i noticed that once i was around 8.6-9.0w/Kg that i could hang with any attack in the cat 3’s, now racing 1/2’s i know that i need to be around 10-10.3 w/Kg to handle the big moves. Another issue could be your lack of specific race training, AKA race more and train weekly with a hard group ride to get used to the unique demands of handling a flurry of attacks/recover/repeat etc. Racing is hard to simulate on your own, in particular crit’s and very hard road races, that is why weekly group rides are essential and race as much as possible during the season to stay in race shape. Then use the off season to get specific power numbers up, work on your weakness, build up your miles, and then start racing.
Edit: one thing to add, depending on what type of racing you do can shape your specific training. For example locally we have a lot of races with 1-2min very steep hills but no climbs, so this always becomes the key moment. Therefore 1 minute power is essential locally. But if you live in an area where races have significant climbs, flat, or 3-5 minute hills then your training might want to change slightly.
i don’t suppose you can comment on the change of tactics you might have in mind?
Two words: scorched earth.
From my experience with running, I think you’d likely hit your ceiling much faster in events with smaller aerobic contributions - thinking back on my improvements in the 400, 800 and mile from high school to college. Minimal change in the 400, but huge in the mile. If you’ve barely trained specifically something but are in generally good shape, I bet you could see up to a 10% improvement in a few months, beyond that though I wouldn’t expect much change at all.
5 w/kg for 20 minutes is generally indicative of someone who would be a breakaway motor…
however, without knowing your weight and the terrain of your races, it’s really just a nebulous “maybe” kind of a variable.
For instance, let’s say you are 50 kg. That means you can do 250w for 20 minutes, but you happen to live in Chicago and wonder why you get shelled in cat 3 crits.
I would say it depends on the rider whether you can add 100 watts to your 1 min power over the winter.
Question is- will it make you more successful in the races that you do? Also- will you end up sacrificing other parts of your game to do so?
What are your racing goals?
I was a similar type rider back when I used to do NRC and P1-2 races.
What helped me the most was:
1.) Working on my complete game including keeping the 20 min power as high as possible. I found that when this number was high I could do a better job of masking my weaknesses.
2.) Get good at bike handling. Being terrific in corners and descents is always a win. It is safer, you are in a better position to go with moves, and it saves energy. Many high w/kg diesel engine type riders are not good at this.
3.) Get good at crits and do crits. This works on your handling, positioning, short duration power, etc. And since you don’t consider it to be your bread and butter you can take more chances to see what works, etc.
thanks for all the replies!
suppose i want to try to find this extra 100 watts … a few days ago i did 4x1min all out and they were all 540w … suppose i wanna see 650 next spring.
- will this hurt my 20min power? much as i want to win a road race i don’t want to sacrifice my timetrialling
- what is a good strategy? doing sets with 30s at the target wattage and trying to hang on?
yeah if i could be dropped into an established breakaway i’d be pretty useful, though they’d jump me at the line 
but i’m useless establishing one. i’m sure there’s a little eye rolling when i’m seen trying to get in a break … parachute in 3… 2… 1
yeah if i could be dropped into an established breakaway i’d be pretty useful, though they’d jump me at the line
but i’m useless establishing one. i’m sure there’s a little eye rolling when i’m seen trying to get in a break … parachute in 3… 2… 1
Mmmm, not to prattle on but there is some novice reasoning in this statement that is going to get you beat every time.
- No one gets a medal for establishing a breakaway-just do what it takes to get on the wheels and then build the gap.
- No one is really eye rolling at your lack of speed, getting off the front is getting off the front whether it takes 400w or 1400w.
- Don’t ever think of yourself as “useful” to your breakaway companions. They are your competitors and you want to hurt them. Do the least amount of work in the break possible to stay away and then roll those MFers!
Don’t be so hard on yourself dude. If you were pining to be a sprinter or a leadout man maybe this 1 minute deficiency would be a problem but your goals are entirely achievable on FTP, guile and cunning.
thanks for all the replies!
suppose i want to try to find this extra 100 watts … a few days ago i did 4x1min all out and they were all 540w … suppose i wanna see 650 next spring.
- will this hurt my 20min power? much as i want to win a road race i don’t want to sacrifice my timetrialling
- what is a good strategy? doing sets with 30s at the target wattage and trying to hang on?
My favorite workout is two sets of 3-5 x 1 min, 3-4 min between efforts, 8+ min between sets. I usually do them at ~75%of 1 min max and they are quite hard by the end. Rest is key. Go super easy between efforts so you can max out the hard part.
I don’t think these workouts ruin aerobic ability. Np for such a workout is quite high, although it’s an obvious np buster.
5 w/kg for 20 minutes is generally indicative of someone who would be a breakaway motor…
however, without knowing your weight and the terrain of your races, it’s really just a nebulous “maybe” kind of a variable.
For instance, let’s say you are 50 kg. That means you can do 250w for 20 minutes, but you happen to live in Chicago and wonder why you get shelled in cat 3 crits.
This.
Probably not as trainable as aerobic performance. (The slide below is from a talk a gave a couple of years ago, at which time I reviewed the literature to try to address such questions.)
Anyway, if you can sustain 5.3 W/kg for 20 min but are having problems making it into/creating breakaways, then it may be that you need to change tactics (or even teams), rather than trying to increase your short-term power.
Can you explain that table a little more or link to a site that does? Specifically, is there any significance to the order chosen for the left column (L4, L5, eff, L7, L6)?
I think what Dr.Coggan and Jordano said are pretty much spot on.
Yours doesn’t sound like a power issue so much as a tactical issue. Someone mentioned 10 w/kg for p/1/2 breaks but I have not come anywhere close to putting out 10 w/kg for a minute to get in any p/1/2 breaks this season. Due to negative racing tactics, I’ve stopped even jumping out of the field and will just move inside and outside and seated shoot for 600-700w for 10-20s and then roll 500-550 for another minute or however long necessary. I’m about 75 kg so that’s not even 8w/kg. But that comes down to timing and tactics as they alluded to. I can’t do that when the field is all fresh and ready to jump on anything. I do that when we’re strung out and little gaps are opening and everyone is just dying for the opportunity to sit up and catch a breath.
That’s where someone with good 20 min, 5+ w/kg should do pretty well I’d imagine. While everyone else is gassing out at 5-5.5, you’re still in a good place (relatively speaking) and can take it up that 10% necessary to crack some dudes.