As first time poster I have to ask you for your help as I need a good FTP number for a race up the Mont Ventoux. I know the standard ways of determining FTP (1 hour test, or 95% of 20 minutes) but for me it is not possible to do such a test do to the lack of an indoor trainer or the time available. The race in Sunday the 19th of June. Although I have not contributed to the forum yet I am sure that I can share some interesting information later.
I did do a VO2Max test with the following test protocol. Starting at 175 watt the power was increased after 5 minutes with 25 watts. The power was increased every 5 minutes with 25 watts until exhaustion. The last test I managed to get 3 minutes at 375 watt when I stopped. If I take the average of the last 5 steps (as if I finished 375 watt) the average 20minute power would be 338 watt. Based on 95% of a 20 minute max effort my FTP would then be 320 watt. I also believe that I could finish 20 minutes at 340 watt so I believe this number is realistic.
Although lactate measurement were taken they were not disclosed to me.
Additional information regarding power is that during a recent 60 km ride I found on the Garmin an interval of 7 minutes with an average power of 342 watt / 354 watt normalized power. Average heart rate during the interval was 153 BPM (max 164) and my maximum HR for cycling is 174. This support my feeling that my FTP is about 320 watt.
Although 320 seem on the high side to me I believe the numbers do support this. I know that on this forum there are a lot of knowledgeable people regarding power so my questions would be if the above makes sense to you. The next question would be with what power target for the race up the Mont Ventoux I should start.
Based on experience testing with a similar protocol my first reaction would have been 325 … so a Threshold zone in the area of 310-330 …
DO you have avg/max HR for each stage ?
Thanks for the reply!
Yes I have average and max heart rates for each zone.
300 watt, average HR 154, max HR 157
325 watt, average HR 161, max HR 163
350 watt, average HR 168, max HR 171
375 watt, average HR 173, Max HR 174
Any advice on a possible target power for the event ± 1:40 hour?
I would dump your power files in to Xert and let it estimate your FTP. It’s going to have access to a lot more datapoints than the few you’ve listed here.
So your VO2max test lasted 43 minutes?
Sharon
Do you have the HR’s for all corresponding stages …
As for a 100min TT essentially … without other correlating data / info … I would think abut doing it in 25min blocks … each 25min be able to lift power slightly … one you are in the final 25min you be able gauge what you have left. Personally I’d give myself a cap of 85% of FTP the first 25min then adapt that every 25,
What you describe doesn’t really sound like a VO2max test. I’ve done similar ramp tests to yours except they ramp about 25-30w per minute, not 5 minutes.
As for a 100min TT essentially … without other correlating data / info … I would think abut doing it in 25min blocks … each 25min be able to lift power slightly … one you are in the final 25min you be able gauge what you have left. Personally I’d give myself a cap of 85% of FTP the first 25min then adapt that every 25,
85% is a very low percentage FTP for a 1:40 TT (50 miles?). I do more than that for a 100 mile TT, as do many other people. On a bad day, 50 mile power is around 95% FTP for me, 97% on a good day. I never pace them with a target power, I simply ride them at what feels like the maximum sustainable effort for that duration, in an increasing amount of pain as it goes on until I finally cross the line with it taking everything I’ve got to hold the same power.
Yes that is correct, the complete test took about 43 minutes.
The test itself is may be different from a VO2max test so the title is a bit misleading. The test is designed to determine lactate threshold as accurate as possible by measuring the build up of lactate at the end of each stage.
The corresponding heart rates for all the stages are as follows:
175 watt, 112 average HR, 120 Max HR
200 watt, 124 average HR, 132 Max HR
225 watt, 128 average HR, 133 Max HR
250 watt, 135 average HR, 140 Max HR
275 watt, 144 average HR, 151 Max HR
300 watt, 154 average HR, 157 Max HR
325 watt, 161 average HR, 163 Max HR
350 watt, 168 average HR, 171 Max HR
375 watt, 173 average HR, 174 Max HR
I do not have the power in the file as there was no ANT power output from the trainer.
Thank you all for your input so far.
Based on the input I am thinking about using a target power from the start of 300 watt. I believe this is below threshold and also judging from the HR values I believe I should be able to hold this for at least 1:30 hour to 2 hour. In case something is left near the end I would try to increase the effort. 300 watt is about 92% from 325 watt which I believe is threshold power. 85% is about 275 watt but I think this would feel very low in the beginning.
Thank you all for your input so far.
Based on the input I am thinking about using a target power from the start of 300 watt. I believe this is below threshold and also judging from the HR values I believe I should be able to hold this for at least 1:30 hour to 2 hour. In case something is left near the end I would try to increase the effort. 300 watt is about 92% from 325 watt which I believe is threshold power. 85% is about 275 watt but I think this would feel very low in the beginning.
I would just do proper test and find out for sure. For that type of event I would go between 90-95% of your tested number but lean towards the lower end to start off with
The other thing to consider is that your outdoor power may be considerably higher than your power on the trainer. I have done a similar test to the one you did, just with 4 minutes at each 25W instead of 5 minutes, and my 50 mile TT power is around 50W below the final failure power, which I completed 2:30 of, so equivalent to you being able to ride a 50 mile TT at 325W. And we’d expect that the 5 minute test would produce a slightly lower final failure power than the 4 minute test, so that would bring it even closer. But part of the reason for my 50 mile power being that high relative to the test is that I put out quite a bit more power outdoors than on the trainer, so you also need to know what that difference is for you.
You have gotten some good advice on this thread. I just wanted to add that if you got a proper VO2max test, you should have an idea of power where your RER crossed one. FTP should be just short of that. If you estimate an FTP that corresponds with RER>1, you almost certainly are overestimating. If it is way less than that, you are probably underestimating.
Not a perfect rule of thumb, but a good way to double check.
Andy
That is a very valid point that you bring up. The test was performed indoor in a pretty warm room without ventilators running. I am aware of what heat does to your performance so this for sure will affect the result of the test. Outdoor performance should be better than the test. Also the setting could help, this being a race instead of a dull session on the trainer.
For those interested I will report back with the results. Thanks all for the help.
** **The test itself is may be different from a VO2max test so the title is a bit misleading. The test is designed to determine lactate threshold as accurate as possible by measuring the build up of lactate at the end of each stage…
…Although lactate measurement were taken they were not disclosed to me.
How unfortunate that the very data that you need was the data that was not disclosed to you. Can you get the lactate measurements now?
Sharon
Yes indeed very unfortunate. The lactate measurements will not be supplied (I already asked). The test was done as part of a double blind randomized study so sharing the lactate measurement is not an option. Too much info from that measurement I guess. Your comment suggest they are right about this.
Yes indeed very unfortunate. The lactate measurements will not be supplied (I already asked). The test was done as part of a double blind randomized study so sharing the lactate measurement is not an option. Too much info from that measurement I guess. Your comment suggest they are right about this.
Ah, I did not realize it was part of a scientific study. You could probably get the results at the end of the investigation, but that will not help you with your race this Sunday! Best of luck – I am headed to France to climb Mt. Ventoux next month!
Sharon
I just want to bring up this thread to indicate what happened for all to learn from this and because I indicated that I would report back.
I have splits from 5 k and I managed the following values (NP)
1st 5 k, 302 NP
2nd 5 k, 283 NP
3 rd 5 k, 228 NP
4rd 5 k, 221 NP
Last 1,38 km, 232 NP
So I basically started okay but I really died in the end. I also got cramps which did not help. After the first 5 k I decreased power because it became clear that 300 watt was too much to hold. After 10 k it was real clear that I started too hard and had to dial back the power quite a lot.
What I did not mention in the OP is that before the climb we rode 110 km to get a bit tired. This was suppose to be a controlled ride but turned out to me a much harder effort than expected. Looking back in the file I found two other sections of 5 k each with a NP of 291 and 293. So I guess that 20 k at around 300 NP would have been possible.
I did input the log in xert as well as a training ride before the climb and that gave me a FTP of 327 watt and 325 watt.