Yes, those are in general recommendations for a triathlete. In this case, I don’t look at it as in-season or out-of-season. That’s a whole different discussion with a lot more specificity.
If you are looking to improve in a significant way in the swim, then there needs to be a time when you train similarly to a swimmer. The big caveat is you can’t train bike and run the way triathlon likes to train bike and run and expect to get better in the swim even if you increase your volume/frequency.
How much would yardage or frequency jump during that off-season? 50% Double?
I’m not going to give a blind recommendation. That question carries way too many exceptions and it all depends on the athlete’s ability level, the goal for the swim, etc…
I’ll be putting on a Swim Camp for Age Group triathletes in the fall for the first time similar to the one I do for the pros in January, if you want to find out.
Man, I am definitely undertraining the swim. I swim 2 x week, 1,500-4,000 m sessions. (“competitive” AG, I do the IM swim in 59-62 minutes). Do you think there is good return of investment in trying 3 x 3,000 m per week, or is this one of those that unless I get the mileage around the ~20 km/week, I will not see a ton of improvements? In a perfect world I would like to get my swim times closer to the 55 min range but without compromising time for bike/run training.
You’re welcome and glad you found it helpful. Congratulations on going that fast in the swim on 2x a week. But I can guarantee you that your fitness in the swim is impacting the bike and run.
It would help a little, but it would kind of like asking if I eat one less cookie a week will I be able to drop a lot of weight in a month.
In all seriousness, the addition of one swim workout and increase in practice yardage would help your bike and run more than your swim.
In a perfect world I would like to get my swim times closer to the 55 min range but without compromising time for bike/run training//
I assume your times are swimming in a wetsuit?? The issue for a lot of AG’ers in swimming is just the getting there and back. So if you bump up to 3 times a week, then why not stay in and get in 4k+ each swim?? Its just a few more minutes to be in the water, and you have already sunk the travel time and costs, so as I like to tell my kids, gets your monies worth!! That gets you to 12k+ a week and if done right can definitely get you some improvements over what you have been doing…
And you should definitely do Tim’s camp, probably a week in your life that gets you years worth of improvement on your own…
Wetsuit… swimskin is more like 62-64. Not a bad idea at all (both suggestions, thanks) although 4,000 m passing a ton of breast-strokers and slower swimmers can be soul crushing. Publicly accessible lane swimming in my area is very limited and generally poorly organized and enforced (e.g. grandma swimming 4:00/100 m in the middle of the “fast lane”). Tempted to bite the bullet and join a private club or install one of those endless pools (Lionel almost inspired me a few years ago…but it seems as if he no longer uses it after moving to the US)
I hear you on the pool thing, I often drive an hour on weekends each way to get in my swims. So 120 miles round trip at 20mpg, times 4 bucks a gallon, plus the 6 dollar pool charge, equals 30 bucks for my hour swim!!! But it is worth it for me, like paying that price for my sanity and health. Suppose a smoker pays about the same for their habit each day… (-;
In the end just comes down to what you prioritize, if you really want to be faster in triathlon, then getting your swim faster and in better shape could be the lowest hanging fruit to that objective. You obviously are a very good swimmer to go as fast as you do on such low yardages, so making your great stroke more fit is only going to benefit your bike and runs down the line…
I’ll be putting on a Swim Camp for Age Group triathletes in the fall for the first time similar to the one I do for the pros in January, if you want to find out.Tim
will that be up in the school pool in Magnolia? I’d like to know more about it - I’m in Houston btw
I hear you, I have access to a 50 m pool very early in the morning during some weekdays. It is technically “not far” from my place i.e. 40 mile round trip…but on the way back it is an annoying 60-90 min drive (home or office) during rush hour. It is hard to fit swims around work schedule, but every now and then when I have a day off I go there for a change.
And have the same problem for Open Water Swimming, need to do an 80 mile drive to swim in this beautiful quarry, can’t do it often (doesn’t help that I am in Toronto and season is just a few months) but it is the best OWS experience you can get around here. A single lap around the perimeter can get me ~3,600 m and the time just disappears.
Always trying to figure out how to get faster with the limited time I have due to work (and without wrecking my marriage and of course fitting, 6 hours of biking and 4 hours of running or more… maybe the endless pool is an option. I wouldn’t do all swims in my basement, but two swim pools, and then add two shorter swims at home.
I did the endless pool thing for a few years, and for me it was great. Swam a lot more, no travel time or expense, and mine had a view to die for. You just have to make sure you get into a real pool about once ever few weeks, as the stroke you use in those pools have a tendency to weaken your arms for pulling. But on the other hand, they make your kick 10 times better than it would otherwise be, and it helps connect your whole body into one motion.
I would take another one in a heartbeat, but of course they are about 4 times more expensive than those first ones on the market, so will continue to find places I can go and still enjoy this sport…
So what did you do in the endless pool? Free or any of the strokes? Were you about par on your training and times doing that versus being in the pool all the time?
pretty sure michael mann who is a big dog in masters did a bit of endless pool work. you heard of him?
If you get the endless pool then just add 30-40 min a day of swimming on top of swim and bike and get rid of one commute to swim. Now you have 6x per week endless pool (probably three extra swim hrs), 6 hrs bike, 4 hrs run and one pool swim and net probably less overall time. Also depending on where you live in Toronto can you bike two ways to a pool and increase bike hours and reduce pool car commute time to zero 1x per week?
But maybe with endless pool you can bike faster on less bike time and move some bike hrs to the endless pool. Especially since endless pool forces more kick it will transfer to bike better anyway
Man, I am definitely undertraining the swim. I swim 2 x week, 1,500-4,000 m sessions. (“competitive” AG, I do the IM swim in 59-62 minutes). Do you think there is good return of investment in trying 3 x 3,000 m per week, or is this one of those that unless I get the mileage around the ~20 km/week, I will not see a ton of improvements? In a perfect world I would like to get my swim times closer to the 55 min range but without compromising time for bike/run training.
I am interested in your fall swimming camp.
I’m swimming less now, max 10-12km a week, but I’ve changed the way I train a little bit to make the most of the sessions. Push harder in the warmups,drills etc minimal use of toys. So for example 6/1/6 drill is normally done with fins, ditch the fins. I’d only use toys for recovery weeks other than kickboard and band. Ends up 3-4km of hard work and my times have only dropped slightly. So 3 x 3km a week would be fine, just a lot of tri swim workouts have way too much WU/CD/easy/drills/toys etc so the 9km/week is comprised of 30% work and the rest pissing around. You could do a CSS test and work off that for your main sets to make sure you’re hitting your right paces and doing sets with 300s, 400s. You’ll end up feeling gassed and swimming the whole 4km moderate to hard is pretty unpleasant, but IMO it’s a good way top maximise your limited volume.
So what did you do in the endless pool? Free or any of the strokes?//
Mostly what I would do is just set it at about 54 minute Ironman pace and swim. It clicked off every 30 minutes, so always got in thinking I can do the 30 and almost always pushed the button and did another 30 minute bloc. Really didnt enjoy doing strokes in it, just like the bliss of not having to worry about pace, sighting, or even thinking. Like I get when I run in a forest sometimes, you just zone out and before you know it the workout is done, and usually a lot harder than it felt…
You just never get that in swimming, even in OW there are too many decisions you have to constantly make. It was medatative for me, so did it more often. But as I said, you do have to get to a real pool occasionally to reacquaint yourself with how the water really feels, and of course your strokes too…
I do know of Michael, believe he is in my age group and one of the enduring studs. But as we get older and older, I get closer and closer to him, even beat him here and there, so biding my time… (-;
Tempted to bite the bullet and join a private club or install one of those endless pools
I would join the private club over getting an endless pool to train. I’m working on a video, since I’ve swam in endless pool only for the last few years, where I can show how training in exclusively is not good for a swim stroke. The endless pool is great for what I use it for which is doing one on one private lessons where the athlete is in the water for 30-50 minutes once a week. The pool gives a lot of feedback from the mirror to the current to being able to take and show a lot of video of the stroke very quickly, but training in it exclusively creates some issues in the stroke.
I’ll try to get the video up in the next day or so and post it on this thread.
This! As a lifelong swimmer this is key. My goal is to train the swim just enough that I can be in the top 10% of the swim but NOT be tired at all. I can in most races win the swim……but they don’t usually give awards for the person that wins the swim but then fades on the run and twenty percent of the field passes them. Trust me. I’ve tried that strategy. Lol
I should have everything finalized shortly, but the first/second week of November. I’ll put up the registration on the swimeasyspeed.com website. If you have any other questions, please feel free to reach out.
Thanks Tim for taking the time to share your thoughts.
FWIW, some of my best IM races came during times when I was able to get to the pool more frequently and also spent a good amount of time with a masters group doing shorter but faster repeats.
If I had time to swim four or 5 times each week how would you suggest structuring the workouts. In other words, what would be the focus on different days. . . Race pace / Speed/turnover / stroke refinement / etc. / Longer distances?
and of course fitting, 6 hours of biking and 4 hours of running or more… maybe the endless pool is an option. I wouldn’t do all swims in my basement, but two swim pools, and then add two shorter swims at home.
