Ok I’m guessing the answer will be, “don’t know too many variables†but Ill give it a whirl.
Im turning 50 this fall, started training for Tris about 1 ½ yrs ago with zero running and swimming experience and being a causal biker on and off for 20 yrs or so. ZERO endurance experience. I did my first tri last Sept, IMLP 70.3 (just over 7 hrs) and my second this past Sunday at IMMT 70.3. I did 6 hrs total with 3 hrs on the bike course with an avg power of 191W and a NP of 205W (measured w/ dual sided power taps) . I think the elevation gain was around 3k.
Im 5’10 and about 160 lbs and I rode my 2000 Lemond steel framed road bike with aero bars. I had a bike fit done in aero, used a redshift seat post which “hinges†to put the seat in the TT position. I rode maybe 80% in aero (not the bigger hills or really fast descents due to safety concerns then I was in the drops). Had “race†tires but normal wheels and helmet.
So, any rough thoughts on if I was on a mid-range bike, say a Cervelo P3 or similar with aero wheels and helmet may have done to my time or just to hard to figure? Or just in general how much it would help
My guess is you would be at least 1 MPH faster, maybe 1.5 MPH faster, on a true TT bike with deep wheels and an aero helmet.
For a quick comparison, last year I rode Ironman Gulf Coast 70.3 in 2:35 with just 183W AP and 190W NP. The course only had 507’ total elevation. I was about 185 lbs. and 5-10. My bike and I were configured for max speed (disc rear, 90mm front, decent position, very aero cockpit & brakes, tri suit, aero helmet, etc.) My guess is I would have been well under 20 MPH on a road bike with standard wheels & other stuff.
From my experience, the aero gains will offset aging while you’re in your 50s. You might get some faster some years; yet if you have a setback then you’ll be doing well to get back to a previous best.
Everything helps. I’d favor mechanical efficiency while going aero so your IT bands or hip flexors don’t start talking to you.
Funny that you ask that as I have a pretty good personal case study here… I just did Santa Rosa Ironman on May 11th. I have 2 bikes, my road bike is an 2018 S-Works Tarmac, ETAP Disc, with Zipp 404 wheels, so a pretty fast road bike. My Triathlon bike is a Felt IA2 with Durace DI2 and Enve 4.3 wheels. Both bike have the same Quark power meter on them.
I have been riding my TT bike exclusively for the last 6 months in preparation for IM and about 4 weeks ago started riding the road bike again. I feel like my brakes are stuck on and I have a parachute behind me, couldn’t feel like a slower bike.
In order for me to maintain the same average speed of 21mph, on the same continental 5000 tires on each bike, same ironman course route (1 Loop) I have to average 37 watts more on the road bike which forced my average HR up 13 beats. Same forecasted wind of 2-3 miles an hour, pretty consistent here in Sonoma in the mornings.
In conclusion it just a different game getting off your bike in T2 getting off a Tri bike then a road bike. Hope this helps.
I did almost exactly that last year. I started with a C’dale SR900 (1995) with redshift seatpost and a TT front end, and a best effort TT fit. Last year I upgraded to a Cervelo P3-SL with a very low position, and a professional bike fit. I used the same wheels on both bikes. Roughly increased speed by ~2mph.
My CdA on the C’dale was roughly ~0.29x (estimated), my CdA on the P3 is 0.230 (field tested).
Both bikes are in the “Let’s see your ride” thread.
First thanks to all. To jjmccabe8 WOW! That’s impressive, as is the dollar worth or your two bikes! I will splurge at some point and probably get a used tri bike to get more value for my limited dollars. It would be nice to see my almost 200W get me a better time and I have to say being a 50 year non runner doing a 2hr run after that bike has made me very sore this week
I did almost exactly that last year. I started with a C’dale SR900 (1995) with redshift seatpost and a TT front end, and a best effort TT fit. Last year I upgraded to a Cervelo P3-SL with a very low position, and a professional bike fit. I used the same wheels on both bikes. Roughly increased speed by ~2mph.
My CdA on the C’dale was roughly ~0.29x (estimated), my CdA on the P3 is 0.230 (field tested).
Both bikes are in the “Let’s see your ride” thread.
VERY helpful thanks Tom. Cutting ~20 mins off my ride (19MPH to 21 mph) would have been great and as was mentioned previously I do get very tight hip flexors and occasional IT Band issues for sure
My first 70.3 was on an aluminum commuter bike with the Redshift seat post and aerobars. My second was on a P2 with Flo 30 wheels and disc cover. Both positions were set up by an experienced fitter, but were relatively conservative / upright. My bike split dropped from 3:13 to 2:37. I would attribute about 15 minutes of that to the bike setup, 15 to better offseason training, and the rest to a slightly easier course.
Go check out best bike split. They have modeling software where you can input all your stats - height/weight/ bike set up and you can upload available course data from the races you have done and you can run simulations of how much time you can save with different set ups.
It’s way nerdy but fun. I’m 41. Initially was doing tris 20 years ago on my dads old steel frame with shifters on the down tubes and clip on aero bars. I got back into tris in the last few years and had an older cervelo p2 aluminum frame. Over the past 2 years as I’ve gotten back into racing I would use best bike split to figure out best bang for the buck upgrades. It’s excellent for pacing stratagies as well.
Best bang for the buck - raise your ftp. Trainer road is awesome.
This book is a great resource for understanding aero gains :
Overall best bang for the buck aero upgrades are gonna be positioning on bike (80% of air resistance is your body) > aero tri suit > helmet > wheels >tires> frame
Tire selection and rolling resistance is far more important than many people realize.
5’10 160lbs. I’d say if you lost 10lbs, you would be faster. Buying a new bike can make you train harder and just make you enjoy racing a lot more knowing there is nothing holding you back.
Ok I’m guessing the answer will be, “don’t know too many variables†but Ill give it a whirl.
Im turning 50 this fall, started training for Tris about 1 ½ yrs ago with zero running and swimming experience and being a causal biker on and off for 20 yrs or so. ZERO endurance experience. I did my first tri last Sept, IMLP 70.3 (just over 7 hrs) and my second this past Sunday at IMMT 70.3. I did 6 hrs total with 3 hrs on the bike course with an avg power of 191W and a NP of 205W (measured w/ dual sided power taps) . I think the elevation gain was around 3k.
Im 5’10 and about 160 lbs and I rode my 2000 Lemond steel framed road bike with aero bars. I had a bike fit done in aero, used a redshift seat post which “hinges†to put the seat in the TT position. I rode maybe 80% in aero (not the bigger hills or really fast descents due to safety concerns then I was in the drops). Had “race†tires but normal wheels and helmet.
So, any rough thoughts on if I was on a mid-range bike, say a Cervelo P3 or similar with aero wheels and helmet may have done to my time or just to hard to figure? Or just in general how much it would help
Flat fast courses: tri bike is your best bet.
Hilly courses: tri bike fares better, but not by much.
Gains are made in the aero position (it’s typical you put out more power, in a more comfortable position, in the upright position on a road bike, so when not in a position to get those gains (hilly courses) it washes out. Yeah the tri bike will be faster on decents and flats, but much slower on the hills.
Go check out best bike split. They have modeling software where you can input all your stats - height/weight/ bike set up and you can upload available course data from the races you have done and you can run simulations of how much time you can save with different set ups.
It’s way nerdy but fun. I’m 41. Initially was doing tris 20 years ago on my dads old steel frame with shifters on the down tubes and clip on aero bars. I got back into tris in the last few years and had an older cervelo p2 aluminum frame. Over the past 2 years as I’ve gotten back into racing I would use best bike split to figure out best bang for the buck upgrades. It’s excellent for pacing stratagies as well.
Best bang for the buck - raise your ftp. Trainer road is awesome.
This book is a great resource for understanding aero gains :
Overall best bang for the buck aero upgrades are gonna be positioning on bike (80% of air resistance is your body) > aero tri suit > helmet > wheels >tires> frame
Tire selection and rolling resistance is far more important than many people realize.
But frames looks fast and bikes are fun…
All good stuff! I use both. Trainerroad got my FTP from the 190s last Sept to the 240s for the race. Not only did I use best bike split but I downloaded the course into Trainerroad so I could “ride” the course a couple times. What I found interesting was BBS said with an Avg Power of 184 and NP of 190 Id finish in 2:51 I did and avg of 190W and NP of 205 and finished in 2:58 so more power but slower. Biggest thing is the NP difference which isn’t surprising as I definitely had more “surges” that I intended to. FWIW heres what I got from BBS race analytics
Culley, I don’t understand why you said Tri bike is “much slower” on a hill.
A bike is a bike… Only the weight can maybe affect the performance of a tribike on a hill. But today, there isn’t 10kg difference between a road bike and a tri bike. And you still have an aero panalty with road bike…
So not a lot of difference.
I recently purchased a Tri bike and I don’t see a lot of difference in a hill. But I do on flat for sure
Yeah I had a similar experience with best bike split. I read in forums people saying it was really accurate although I did pretty much what you did and I think it’s estimate was maybe 4 min off my 56k bike time.
Although it may have been due to the quality of the course data. I used some of the available gps data on the courses I raced on from bbs - but they were basically files uploaded from other riders. I even used the function where I could download the pacing data on my wahoo to have goals on the course but the data didn’t correlate well with where the climbs and descents are. I think any modeling software is going to be very dependent on the quality of the data you feed in.
But I did like being able to play around with estimates of how much time I could save making different equipment changes. I had an older 2008 cervelo p2sl which was one of their last aluminum frames. While aero it was not as aero as current frames. I upgraded most everything but the bike frame first. Helmet, kit, wheels, even rebuilt the front end and cockpit with the profile aeria setup that integrates and aero hydration thing so it’s like a super bike front end. Finally after a successful season I got an aero carbon frame leftover from a few seasons ago and built it up with all the components I had.
I ran the same race course this year as last and with the new aero frame it was maybe a minute faster. But so many other variables… heat vs rain blah blah blah. but it was a fun project and way to reward hard work. And it looks fast.
But as for how much benefit from a really top end aero frame vs a lesser older aero frame - there’s a lot more lower hanging fruit that’s more cost effective.
With all that being said your estimated cda is pretty high at 0.3526.
If you’re on a standard road frame with clip on aero bars a tri bike could be a significant improvement. If I were you I try creating some different bike set ups on bbs and running time estimates.
There’s lots of great hardly used equipment out there. I’m sure you could find a hardly used bike a few years old for a great deal you just gotta know what your looking for.
With all that being said your estimated cda is pretty high at 0.3526.
If you’re on a standard road frame with clip on aero bars a tri bike could be a significant improvement. If I were you I try creating some different bike set ups on bbs and running time estimates.
There’s lots of great hardly used equipment out there. I’m sure you could find a hardly used bike a few years old for a great deal you just gotta know what your looking for.
Thanks! I thinks that where I am as far as getting a used bike. Im going to wait to the fall when folks are looking to upgrade or leave the sport and Ill see what I can pick up. I know NOTHING about cdas whats a good range to be in?
Cda is basically a measure of air resistance. It varies based on your size and build and position on the bike. The real way to measure it is in a wind tunnel. So it’s just an estimate from bbs. And it’s calculated from the data bbs from your ride so it’s only as good as that data. I wouldn’t put that much stock in the exact accuracy of that number. To get a true cda number it’s really got to be in a wind tunnel or velodrome. You can do the Chung method if estimating cda which is supposed to give a good estimate but is pretty intensive.
You can go into bbs and build different bikes and equipment set ups and it will give estimates of cda with different set ups.
From when I was reading up on it and playing with bbs and listening to tr podcasts a world class cda would be like .20 bigger guy with proper fit on tt bike and set up maybe .26 I think on the tr podcast when those guys did velodrome testing Nate and chad were .26 Jonathan was .2 or .21 or something ridiculous.
Gotcha so if the estimate is close, even in the aero position I’m a fully opened mast sail! I do actually remember that podcast it was the Specialized wind tunnel work I think. I had forgotten about that. Al good stuff, Im a 50 yr old “weekend warrior” who just moved from a BOP’er to a MOP’er but will never ever be a FOP’er so some good marginal gains would be nice!
I’ve done a bunch of sort of field testing on this over the years. Not on the same day but over the same routes.
To ride about the same time in training for a road bike (74 mile loop) I have to ride at least 30 watts more to get within about 5 min of my TT bike times. (since it’s not scientific I figured being within 5min is close enough)
It’s a much different ride on the road bike as well. I’m trying to be low/aero and sort of slaying myself. On the TT bike it’s a whole lot easier without really worrying about nailing my best aero position
I will splurge at some point and probably get a used tri bike to get more value for my limited dollars. It would be nice to see my almost 200W get me a better time and I have to say being a 50 year non runner doing a 2hr run after that bike has made me very sore this week