As an fyi, I find that it’s much more difficult to take in that same amount while running. I run with a nathan’s hydration pack that holds 72 oz. for my long runs (roughly 2:00-2:15). I had 72 oz of perform in it last week, but finished with about 24 oz left.
I think there are a few reasons for that.
It is harder to suck it in through (effectively) a straw.
I don’t really know how much I’m drinking as I can’t see it.
It’s just harder to digest when running than biking.
Regarding your point about effort, I cannot take in and digest nearly as much during hard efforts. This is noticeable when I work in intervals into my long bike. If I’m following my IM fuel plan and throw in a 20’ FTP effort, I’ll probably develop stomach cramps. The only solution for the cramps is to back off (or add water to try and dilute things), or time things better. I’ll usually back off on the fuel/hydration for a bit leading into a hard effort and try to make up for it after. For an Olympic distance race, I’m only aiming for 1 bottle of sports drink on the bike. You should be able to digest more during longer events. For a Half Ironman I’m taking in 4 bottles on the bike…which is usually 2:20-2:30 depending on the course. If it were really hot, I might shoot for another bottle. Even with that amount, I have not pee’d on the bike in a half ironman.
My biggest weight loss in a 13 mile run is ~9 pounds on a hot day, so we’re very similar in that regard. That was before I started running with the hydration vest. I was told by QT2 that I’m really at the upper limit for the amount of fluid you can take in and process and that at most I could add 1 more bottle for the bike leg of the race in an ironman. Although I have a friend who said he was taking in 2 bottles of perform per hour and added a few more bottles of plain water at IMCZ last fall due to the heat.
There’s some interesting stuff out there about Scott Molina who was apparently not only a legendary triathlete, but a legendary sweater
Will do. Had an interesting conversation with my girlfriend about kidneys, the various jobs and buffers they do, and what the potential results are of imbalances. (She’s a 20 yr floor nurse having worked in every department, who is currently working as a diagnosis reviewer–making sure doctors do what they’re supposed to do).
Given how frequent IM aid stations are, I would go with two cages. You probably could get away with one, but sometimes it’s nice to take two bottles…
If you like to keep one bottle just for spraying yourself down (water of course).
If it allows you to skip an aid station. You probably would like to avoid carrying 2 full bottles right before a big climb, but on flats or rollers the added weight is a non factor. You would likely gain time by being able to ride right past an aid station because you have 2 bottles rather than slowing down to grab a bottle at every aid station in hopes of shaving weight.
Just because you have 2 cages it doesn’t mean you have to put full bottles in both of them all the time.
I only use 3 bottles. One in the aero bars(water bottle), one in the seat tube(Aero bottle w/ all calories), and the last is behind the saddle(All calories). I also keep a bottle in my bike special needs bag that has all calories also, just in case I lose a bottle on the course. I don’t take any nutrition on course, just water at aid stations.
I also keep a bottle in my bike special needs bag that has all calories also, just in case I lose a bottle on the course.
Something new people might not realize is that bottle in your special needs bag will likely be over 100F by the time you get to it. That was a mistake I made at my first IM, the stuff was so hot and syrupy I couldn’t stomach it. As a result I tossed it at the next aid station only to realize they only had water there. Made for a long and painful hour until the next full aidstation.
One bottle between the arms. Replace with water or energy drink from aid stations, depending on what I fancy. I have an aero bottle on the downtube aswell, but that is for gels because I can’t be arsed to unwrap them.
Did this at IM Austria and Outlaw (UK) no probs at all. Austria was hottest year on record, 2012.
Stupid question: at the bottle exchange, what kind of bottles do they hand you? Is it the throw-away convenience store bottles or the standard bike bottles we buy at a LBS? Thanks.
it’s something you have to practice to get used to.
since you seem satisfied with your plan, I am assuming you don’t experience any gut issues on the run?? I am also a bigger guy (6’5", 185lb) and tried a higher calorie intake during my last IM (~460 cal/hr on bike), however this backfired on me during the run and had several jonny stops… did you have to train your gut up to eventually be able to handle this amount of volume and calories?? or was finding the right ratio between liquid/solid/gel’s more contributing to your success?? also, did you supplement with any salt tablets??
The only gut issues I’ve had have been at the beginning of the run (side stitch)…which went away with water after a few miles. That seems to be the one complication I’ve had in the half-dozen races I’d done with the new fuel plan. It has only happened once so far. Once that went away, I was fine. I may end up taking my last bottle on the bike as just water instead of peform/sports drink going forward. I haven’t experienced any stomach issues on the bike portion of the race since changing to the current plan I’m on. The plan also includes what to eat in the hours leading up to the race as well as the day before. It really makes life a bit simpler in that regard…you just follow the schedule. The one downside is getting up extra early to eat “breakfast”.
When I was working with QT2 they went over everything in detail with me after I did a sweat test (basically an hour on the bike trainer at half ironman pace…I lost 5 pounds IIRC). As you said, it’s a matter of getting the right ratio. Yes, I do use salt tablets as well. 2 s-caps in a half ironman…1 at the beginning of the bike and 1 at the end. I will use a lot more in a full. One of the things they discussed with me is what to do if different products are on course. Peform is ideal. Gatorade is actually pretty good (though it seems to sit a bit “heavier” in my stomach). Heed is very low on sodium. So, when I did B2B last fall (where heed was the on course nutrition) I did some simple math comparing the sodium content of perform vs heed and added the appropriate number of s-caps to my fuel plan. It was not a trivial amount. I have a history of muscle cramping, which I’m sure was partially(or mostly) due to dehydration. It wasn’t just cramping localized in my legs, it was virtually ever muscle in my body, including ones I didn’t know I had…and it would last for a few days after the race. I use a powertap so I’m pretty confident the cramping wasn’t due to poor pacing. At any rate, it made a world of difference for me.
Quite honestly, it only required 2-3 weeks of using higher calories/fluid consumption in training before I got use to it. I experimented a lot before that and can honestly say I would have NEVER come close to what I’m doing now nutritionallly. It was well worth the money…which was basically the equivalent of 1 half ironman race fee that was effectively blown due to a poor fueling “plan”.
The plan also includes what to eat in the hours leading up to the race as well as the day before. It really makes life a bit simpler in that regard…you just follow the schedule. The one downside is getting up extra early to eat “breakfast”.
This is a point that some people don’t realize is quite key: i.e. taking in 600-800 calories 3 hours prior to race (being finished eating by then), then sipping a sport drink in the hours leading up to the start, 1/2-1 energy bar 1 hour prior to start, and a gel at 15-20 minutes prior to start.
One of the things they discussed with me is what to do if different products are on course. Peform is ideal. Gatorade is actually pretty good (though it seems to sit a bit “heavier” in my stomach). Heed is very low on sodium. So, when I did B2B last fall (where heed was the on course nutrition) I did some simple math comparing the sodium content of perform vs heed and added the appropriate number of s-caps to my fuel plan. It was not a trivial amount. I have a history of muscle cramping, which I’m sure was partially(or mostly) due to dehydration. It wasn’t just cramping localized in my legs, it was virtually ever muscle in my body, including ones I didn’t know I had…and it would last for a few days after the race. I use a powertap so I’m pretty confident the cramping wasn’t due to poor pacing. At any rate, it made a world of difference for me.
This, too, is a good point. Sports drinks differ in energy source, electrolyte balance, and pH. It’s important to know what works for you since bodies, environment, training regime and diet vary.
More reading (may offer some information to help pick products that work for you): Electrolyte Replenishment The Endurolytes Rationale Osmolality Review: The Biochemistry of Fuels Absorption
Yes, the rate of absorption is slowed. The change depends on what that concentration consists of, but in general the body is working to get rid of water and do something with the nutrients. Over hydration and excess nutrition/fuel not only slows absorption of all nutrients but actually causes the body to use the nutrients and energy it already has in order to expel the excess. When this happens many people think they need more water and/or nutrients/fuel, but it’s like pushing harder on the gas pedal when the motor is already drowning. The only difference is that the body uses reserves while trying to stay afloat. In such cases, the answer is actually to back off, let the body catch up, then don’t flood it again.
Thanks Illusion. Very interesting - glad I found this post. Last Friday I did a practice ride on the Sado Island (Japan) triathlon course. The course is 190 km with about 1500 meters of climbing. Temps were in the low 90s and humidity was 65-70%. I had decided to try to get a larger portion of calories from sports drink and averaged about 850 ml per hour (160 cal) for the 7.5 hour ride. 7.5 hours included about 20 minutes of vending machine stops (Coke’s local sports drink) and pre/post tunnel stops to turn on/off my flashing tail light (all told there were about 6 km worth of tunnels). I supplemented the liquid calories with average of 150 calories powergel/powerbar per hour for a grand total of 310 calories/hour. I did not have to pee during the ride and when I made a pit stop at the end, there was very little in my bladder.
Contrary to other posters, I only weigh 130 pounds. The results above are consistent with other recent long rides of 5-6 hours in the heat. I had read in a couple of other posts that you should aim for peeing twice during the bike so my first reaction was that I need to further ramp up my liquid intake. Based on what you are saying, I may need to do the opposite and cut back on the sports drink. I still have another month to get this sorted out. Any additional inputs would be appreciated.
Thanks Illusion. Very interesting - glad I found this post. Last Friday I did a practice ride on the Sado Island (Japan) triathlon course. The course is 190 km with about 1500 meters of climbing. Temps were in the low 90s and humidity was 65-70%. I had decided to try to get a larger portion of calories from sports drink and averaged about 850 ml per hour (160 cal) for the 7.5 hour ride. 7.5 hours included about 20 minutes of vending machine stops (Coke’s local sports drink) and pre/post tunnel stops to turn on/off my flashing tail light (all told there were about 6 km worth of tunnels). I supplemented the liquid calories with average of 150 calories powergel/powerbar per hour for a grand total of 310 calories/hour. I did not have to pee during the ride and when I made a pit stop at the end, there was very little in my bladder.
Contrary to other posters, I only weigh 130 pounds. The results above are consistent with other recent long rides of 5-6 hours in the heat. I had read in a couple of other posts that you should aim for peeing twice during the bike so my first reaction was that I need to further ramp up my liquid intake. Based on what you are saying, I may need to do the opposite and cut back on the sports drink. I still have another month to get this sorted out. Any additional inputs would be appreciated.
I know those Japanese vending machines well! My favourite was one of the green teas.
It’s great that you are dialing in what works for you. 850ml water per hour is at the top end of what the (average) body can absorb. Since you didn’t pee and your bladder was only slightly full at the end of the session it sounds like the amount was right on. Weather conditions, the body’s pre-exercise hydration and nutrition state, and personal sweating level all play a part so there’s always some on-course evaluation and adjustment needed. I like to find my max and min hydration and nutrient limits so that I can understand my body better. It sounds like this is exactly what you are doing! 310 Calories/hour is high. For experimentation purposes try dropping it to ~280 total calories, then to ~225, and see what happens. The latter is my requirement for an IM bike course. (150 C/hr is my IM running requirement. Electrolyte needs, from Hammer Endurolytes, vary by weather conditions.) I personally don’t agree that an athlete *should *aim to pee on the bike. With that said, there’s a difference between biking for 4.5 hours and 8.5 hours–the latter AGer should probably have to pee during that duration.
On a side note, I like to carry one bottle that holds my sport drink in concentration, and all other bottles hold only water. I refill the BTA with water and occasionally take pulls from the concentrate. This method makes it much easier to regulate calories. It also means that I only carry a BTA and a ~700ml BTS bottle on course, then get water for the BTA from each aid station on course. I make 100ml incremental marks on the concentrate bottle representing each hour of caloric concentrate.
Thanks Illusion. Very interesting - glad I found this post. Last Friday I did a practice ride on the Sado Island (Japan) triathlon course. The course is 190 km with about 1500 meters of climbing. Temps were in the low 90s and humidity was 65-70%. I had decided to try to get a larger portion of calories from sports drink and averaged about 850 ml per hour (160 cal) for the 7.5 hour ride. 7.5 hours included about 20 minutes of vending machine stops (Coke’s local sports drink) and pre/post tunnel stops to turn on/off my flashing tail light (all told there were about 6 km worth of tunnels). I supplemented the liquid calories with average of 150 calories powergel/powerbar per hour for a grand total of 310 calories/hour. I did not have to pee during the ride and when I made a pit stop at the end, there was very little in my bladder.
Contrary to other posters, I only weigh 130 pounds. The results above are consistent with other recent long rides of 5-6 hours in the heat. I had read in a couple of other posts that you should aim for peeing twice during the bike so my first reaction was that I need to further ramp up my liquid intake. Based on what you are saying, I may need to do the opposite and cut back on the sports drink. I still have another month to get this sorted out. Any additional inputs would be appreciated.
I know those Japanese vending machines well! My favourite was one of the green teas.
It’s great that you are dialing in what works for you. 850ml water per hour is at the top end of what the (average) body can absorb. Since you didn’t pee and your bladder was only slightly full at the end of the session it sounds like the amount was right on. Weather conditions, the body’s pre-exercise hydration and nutrition state, and personal sweating level all play a part so there’s always some on-course evaluation and adjustment needed. I like to find my max and min hydration and nutrient limits so that I can understand my body better. It sounds like this is exactly what you are doing! 310 Calories/hour is high. For experimentation purposes try dropping it to ~280 total calories, then to ~225, and see what happens. The latter is my requirement for an IM bike course. (150 C/hr is my IM running requirement. Electrolyte needs, from Hammer Endurolytes, vary by weather conditions.) I personally don’t agree that an athlete *should *aim to pee on the bike. With that said, there’s a difference between biking for 4.5 hours and 8.5 hours–the latter AGer should probably have to pee during that duration.
On a side note, I like to carry one bottle that holds my sport drink in concentration, and all other bottles hold only water. I refill the BTA with water and occasionally take pulls from the concentrate. This method makes it much easier to regulate calories. It also means that I only carry a BTA and a ~700ml BTS bottle on course, then get water for the BTA from each aid station on course. I make 100ml incremental marks on the concentrate bottle representing each hour of caloric concentrate.
Many thanks for the reply and your inputs. I will try dialing down the calories. I was thinking that 300-310 would help build up a buffer for the run, but as you said, my body has to work to process the extra fuel. Drinking the concentrated sports drink sounds pretty intense - what are you using? Then again, it can’t taste much worse than those powergels.
Many thanks for the reply and your inputs. I will try dialing down the calories. I was thinking that 300-310 would help build up a buffer for the run, but as you said, my body has to work to process the extra fuel. Drinking the concentrated sports drink sounds pretty intense - what are you using? Then again, it can’t taste much worse than those powergels.
I use 1/2 scoop Hammer HEED (lemon/lime or mandarine) + 1/2 scoop Hammer Sustained Energy (unflavored) in 100ml water per hour. It’s not too bad. I usually take 3 squirts per hour. See the picture below for a more detailed layout of my IM on course nutrition plan. (I can also give you my pre-race nutrition plan if you want.) …and a gulp of water at every run aid station–although sometimes I’ll skip a banana and take an orange quarter or two and just suck on it to get the juice, calories, and nutrients.
…and a gulp of water at every run aid station–although sometimes I’ll skip a banana and take an orange quarter or two and just suck on it to get the juice, calories, and nutrients.