There is a aid station at LP close to the top of the climb out of LP before the descent. I started with one bottle and picked up more fluid at that aid station.
Like others say how long will it take you between aid stations? Since you are using off the course no reason to have more than 2 bottles. Check out the aid station map and consider the terrain as time between stations even if all are 10 miles may take significantly different time due to terrain.
400 calories per hour is high for AGers most are in the 200-300 range. Have you done that on a long ride and done a 45+ minute run with no ill effects?
2 bottles per hour? Aren’t you having to go to the bathroom a lot on course?
Ideally, yes, I’ll pee twice on the bike. Or, once on the bike and once in T2 as I did at B2B last fall. I did IMLP twice using 1 bottle per hour and failed miserable both times and ended up in the hospital last year due to dehydration.
I would suggest that something else was/is wrong. The human body cannot physically absorb more than 600-900ml of water from the gut in an hour. The rest is just pulling energy, salts and minerals from the body as it tries to get rid of it.
I’m doing my first IM this summer. My plan is to have two bottles of my preferred drink on board, then feed off the course with water/perform until I get to special needs, where I will pick up another two bottles of my preferred beverage, which should do me just fine until the end of the bike.
Where’s special needs located on the course? Isn’t it @ about the 100-120k mark? Last year Challenge was at 120k so I split my needs accordingly. 2/3 before 1/3 after. I “think” Whistler’s special needs is at approximately the same distance BUT (notice that’s a big but lol) there’s a big climb at the very end and I’m sure that’s going to have an affect on nutrition strategy too.
I believe it’s right at the bottom of the climb to Whistler, at around 120k. So yeah, I may need to pick up another bottle somewhere before T2. I’ve been getting in the habit of stopping to refuel around 120k in to my long rides at gas stations or convenience stores. My little road side tradition has evolved in to grabbing a couple gatorades, a can of coke and snickers bar (big health nut here…). I wolf down the coke and snickers while refilling my bottles and I’m off again, and man is that one hell of a pick me up. I’m planning on keeping a small water bottle of flat coke and a snickers in my special needs bag now!
I would suggest that something else was/is wrong. The human body cannot physically absorb more than 600-900ml of water from the gut in an hour. The rest is just pulling energy, salts and minerals from the body as it tries to get rid of it.
Good point. Isn’t that amount also decreased based on the concentration of the drink you are consuming?
Yes, the rate of absorption is slowed. The change depends on what that concentration consists of, but in general the body is working to get rid of water and do something with the nutrients. Over hydration and excess nutrition/fuel not only slows absorption of all nutrients but actually causes the body to use the nutrients and energy it already has in order to expel the excess. When this happens many people think they need more water and/or nutrients/fuel, but it’s like pushing harder on the gas pedal when the motor is already drowning. The only difference is that the body uses reserves while trying to stay afloat. In such cases, the answer is actually to back off, let the body catch up, then don’t flood it again.
I would suggest that something else was/is wrong. The human body cannot physically absorb more than 600-900ml of water from the gut in an hour. The rest is just pulling energy, salts and minerals from the body as it tries to get rid of it
That’s nice. You can suggest that all you want…and you would be wrong. I can tell you that not only do I routinely take in 2 x 24 oz bottles of perform per hour in training and racing for the last year, but I absorb all of it. Bonus!!!
I am much bigger than your average triathlete (I’m typically ~200 lbs during race season…the OP is 195).
I sweat like Mike Tyson in a spelling bee.
I used to take in 1 bottle per hour AND still got dehydrated. Dangerously so, when I have done HOT or long races.
I am not alone in this regard. I personally know other 185+ lb guys (two of which have gone sub 10 hours) who are taking in the same amount per hour. And even more IF it’s hot (though you can’t do much more).
So, if you would like to insist that something else is wrong or that I’m off base, be my guest.
Btw…you should inform the people at QT2 how wrong they are about my race fuel plan that has worked really well for me. I’m sure they would like to know
Whoa, dude. I wasn’t attacking or insisting, just pointing out human limitations and that what appears as one thing can, at times, be something entirely different. Note, athletes don’t need to–in fact cannot–replace everything during an event. Have you ever had your GFR checked? It might be interesting to track over time since you’re such a heavy sweater and are taking in that amount of fluid.
Filtration ASCM: Hydration for fitness ACSM Fluid Replacement Recommendations
Heat and Hydration: Important Concerns for Outdoor Workouts
I drink two bottles of Perform per hour during a race as well… for the first three hours. Then I eat a PB&J sammich chased with an entire bottle of water and then it’s gels and water until finish.
2 water bottles on the bike to start and then 2 more in your special needs. You can supplement with what they have at the aid stations. There is no reason to carry 10 pounds of fluid on your bike at IM like you see so many people do.
ohhhhh…come on now. I had a Mike Tyson reference and a winky.
The thing is, I’ve read a lot on race fuel and nutrition. I also have plenty of first hand experience on how bad dehydration can be. I know that there is going to be a calorie deficit and what the normal limits are. I’d be more interested in the studies that state limits like you mentioned, when there are guys like me that far exceed it and perform better as a result. It would be interesting to do a study on guys like that. Like I said before, the guys I know who are taking in ~48 oz of liquid an hour are all much bigger than your average triathlete. I’m sure that has a lot to do with it.
FWIW, my wife and I are exact opposites when it comes to this. She is a fairly accomplished runner and barely has a glow after hard workouts. I, on the other hand, am sopping wet after a hard workout. I am sure the normal limits as you stated would be more applicable to her since she is roughly 70-75 pounds lighter than me.
The only time I take in water is if I want to clean my mouth a bit…or if I start getting stomach cramps (this only happens if I’m going too hard on the bike, or while running).
P.S. As far as I know, my kidneys are working just fine.
ohhhhh…come on now. I had a Mike Tyson reference and a winky.
My bad.
P.S. As far as I know, my kidneys are working just fine.
Your small intestines and kidneys would have to be in order to take up & filter 48oz/hr. Given your size, perhaps you also have a respectively large glomerular capillary area. My thought was that it could be interesting to see if there are changes over time in your GFR. As you say, nothing has led you to believe that your kidneys aren’t functioning perfectly for you. The physiological geek in me is curious if they’re working overtime 'cause you wouldn’t want to start stressing them too hard if you’re working out and racing a lot while hydrating to that extent. …But I overthink things at times. (Hmm, think I’ll look for studies on athlete size & exercise intensity & heat that has also looked at comprehensive metabolic panel, osmolality blood test, urine osmolality, urine sodium data.)
1L bottle on aerobar and 1 high cal/concentrated bottle on seat tube or BTA (TBA) to mix with water that I get at aid stations. I will have an extra cage on down tube for extra fluids.
I always start with just one bottle of water. I’ll pick up a bottle of Perform at the first aid station and keep one of water and one of Perform for the rest of the race…picking one up as needed.
i use two. One is refillable and one 24 oz attached to the rear. I do have an additional carrier to hold extra water (from aid station) to help keep me cool or wash off pee.
2 bottles per hour? Aren’t you having to go to the bathroom a lot on course?
Ideally, yes, I’ll pee twice on the bike. Or, once on the bike and once in T2 as I did at B2B last fall. I did IMLP twice using 1 bottle per hour and failed miserable both times and ended up in the hospital last year due to dehydration.
Pat McCrann from EN set me straight (he’s also a large guy) and sent me to Core/QT2 to get a race fuel plan. The couple hundred bucks is honestly some of the best money I’ve ever spent in this sport. The fact is, most race fuel plans you’ll read about here are for guys much smaller than us and woefully inadequate especially when it comes to Ironman and other ultra-distance events. I got away with things in half ironman’s to a certain extent (except when it was hot and I ended up dehydrated)…but you can’t get away with it in ironman. I literally doubled my hydration and calorie intake. It seemed insane when I started and it’s something you have to practice to get used to. But I feel much stronger in long workouts and in racing as a result, and I can’t imagine taking in less fluids any more. I have an alarm set for every 10 minutes on the bike, which is my cue for drinking. The one downside is, I routinely leave with 5 bottles (2 on the bike, 3 in my bike jersey) for my workouts now…so my “nutrition” bill is a bit higher.
The interesting thing to me is, when I used to get done with a long ride (for example), I’d end up drinking a ton of fluids and eating a ton of food when I got home. Now, I get home and feel pretty much normal (aside from being tired).
My calories come from a mix of perform, solids (powerbars) and gels. Roughly 2 bottles, 1/2 powerbar, and 1 gel per hour.
6’1 170lbs and on my last 5hrs I had 6 bottles of perform, 2 bananas, 2 clifbars, 4 gels… Came back home feeling great (tired but great).
on race day I carry only 1 bottle of perform BTA and a couple bars gels with me; the rest I will take it from the course.
Utilize your training time to experiment and find what works for you. Do your long rides with a couple different setups until you find the one that you are comfortable using and then use that for the race. Trial and error in training is where you figure out your game plan for success on race day.
y’all please help me shoot holes in this plan–here’s what I did on a 120mi training ride yesterday:
–I wore a cycling jersey, full-zip so it should be easier to put on wet arms in T1. Sun sleeves as well. Wore the desoto tri bibs I will race in as well as the racing top I’ll swim, bike, and run in (under the cycling jersey).
–carried 3x22oz bottles of gatorade–each is a 2-hr bottle, one on the downtube, one in each pocket of cycling jersey. BTA bottle has flat kit. no bottle-cage bolts on the seat tube.
–nutrition is alternating salted caramel GU and margarita shotblox every 10 miles. caloric intake is ~360 cal/hr. I’ve been training with these products for the past 12 weeks. GUs in bento box, shotblox in middle pocket of jersey, bottles one on each side.
My question is: knowing that there are weight and aero penalties to carrying two water bottles in my jersey, aren’t those penalties offset (and then some!) by NOT having to stop at aid stations to refill the bottles?
Depends how fast you are and how much you drink, but I began the bike course with 1 bottle BTA, empty cage on the frame, then picked up a bottle at each station. It might be safer to start with 2 bottles, but there’s a lot of climbing through the opening miles so I wanted to save that weight.
If you find more information on this, then I am very interested. I am in a similar situation as KAlber (sweat A LOT, 195#). I regularly lose lots of water weight during runs when I’m taking in the prescribed water/hour. For example, it’s common for me to start a 13-mile run at 195# and end a run at 187#. That’s a cause of concern for me. So, I’ve been experimenting with more fuel/hydration. And, like KAlber, I’ve only experienced better performances. I have not been so bold to get to 2 bottles/hour. Yet, I’m wondering if during an IM (i.e., less effort than 1/2IM), it might be OK and that these experiments were done at harder efforts. Keep us posted to what you find about bigger people with greater sweat rates.
