I’m wondering how long holding around 110% is feasible? I did an indoor TT over the weekend - old school on Computrainers - and managed to average right around 110% for the ride (15:30 for time). Maybe I underestimated my FTP by a bit going in and maybe was more in the 107-108% range. It was definitely a painful (in a good way) experience and had the eyes closed for the last few minutes just mashing away. Thanks in advance for any replies!
assuming you warm up was easy, ie no 5 min vo2 effort beforehand, 110% for 20 min is reasonable as you will be tapping more than your aerobic system.
assuming you warm up was easy, ie no 5 min vo2 effort beforehand, 110% for 20 min is reasonable as you will be tapping more than your aerobic system.
then we need to rethink the way in first approximation we establish the FTP, with 95% of 20mins test…
5 to 8 minutes for me, I know some people can go longer.
no, we dont, the question was how long can you hold 110%. you are not going to do a tt race/indoor or outdoor by zapping all your W’, you are going to use it in your event. when i was racing, my “ftp” was about 92% of a 20min TT power which mean the 20min(10 mi) power was ~ 110% of my 40k tt power. it will vary by individual +/- but it wont be 105% just because some other protocol you use to estimate ftp has you using 95% of 20min. you are not following the same procedure in the 2 efforts
Well… One of the FTP tests that TrainerRoad uses is the 8-minute test. Their definition of FTP from that is 90% of max power you can maintain for 8 minutes. So, that is 111% of FTP. Therefore, you should be able to maintain 110% FTP for a little more than 8 minutes, but probably not a whole lot more.
I held about 109% of what I thought my current FTP is for 17:05. I Use this TT as my only FTP type test every. The computrainer always reads 10 watts higher than my PT. Taking 93% of the computrainer # is a pretty spot on barometer of fitness for me. If it wasn’t so hot in that room I think I could eck out another 10 watts. Congrats on pipping Lucas at the line.
Don
Just to add in, the power I’m referring to is from my P2Max, which was four watts higher than the Computrainer. I always stick with what my powermeter reads in these events, as that’s what I train and race with.
what does your power curve say you can do?
Obviously the duration is individual, but I wonder if your FTP isn’t a bit higher than you think. Still 15 minutes could be plausible. I tend to be able to hold 110% for ~10-11 minutes.
Well, now that the race is over the power curve says I can do 4.96 w/kg for 15:30!! I have done 4.8 w/kg for around 20 minutes (this was in November), so it seems plausible, especially given a racing environment and embracing the pain. Strava estimates my FTP at around 355 currently based on recent rides, although that seems a bit higher than I feel I could sustain for an hour.
Your power curve from Zwift should include:
numbers for each race you do, as well as your ‘best’ in the last 90 days
If you use an alternate like TP/GC etc…you can look at cumulative data. This will give you a better idea of your ‘bests’ and can know what to target in races of various distances.
Well… One of the FTP tests that TrainerRoad uses is the 8-minute test. Their definition of FTP from that is 90% of max power you can maintain for 8 minutes. So, that is 111% of FTP. Therefore, you should be able to maintain 110% FTP for a little more than 8 minutes, but probably not a whole lot more.
Why is it so impossible for people to understand the bigger picture here? The “20 minute test” is more than just a 20 minute effort. The “8 minute test” is more than an 8 minute effort. Any time people try to draw parallels between a single effort of those durations and the prescribed extrapolation from a benchmarking test with a set protocol, I just want to scream. Same people probably only look at the pictures in the news instead of reading the articles.
Any time people try to draw parallels between a single effort of those durations and the prescribed extrapolation from a benchmarking test with a set protocol, I just want to scream.
Can you be more specific about what you are objecting to here? In this particular thread, we are talking about a circular argument… Even though FTP is a conceptual thing, the inverse of the 8-minute test should align very closely with the OP’s 110% question. It is imperfect, but if the OPs experience varies radically from ~8+ minutes, then it is likely that the FTP basis was inaccurate. If the percentage was anything different, then the analogy would not apply. (Well, except for 105.3%, which would align very closely with a 20-minute test.)
I think this is another case of as stated above missing the point. FTP is at best an estimate. As with all estimates it is subject to error. In the case of FTP on a really good day meaning everything is perfect, temperature, rest, motivation, fueling, warm up etc, etc etc… you could say hit a number like 115, then on the opposite end of the scale things are way less than perfect say you hit 85, on average it might be 100? Now comes the fun part, if you do the test frequently under the exact same conditions then you create a moving target, since this is a form of training and if done often your fitness may increase or conversely you over train or do nothing in between and your fitness goes down… so what is the point of FTP? It gives you something to work with that has some relationship to your fitness to perform. If you track it over time one hopes the slope trends upward.
People are too hung up on the accuracy thing. Be happy you went slightly over what you “predicted” the number might be, it isn’t far off.
for the reasons already stated in this thread. there is a protocol on those estimate tests, those same protocols are not going to be followed in an event
When I do a max 20min effort, I increase my average significantly in the last couple of minutes, especially the last minute. All of my best 20min effort averages have aged in the middle and finished with a surge. The below is my best recollection of the last one I did which averaged 305W.
0-5mins: Avg ~305W. Starting slightly fast then settling close to 300W.
5-8mins: Avg ~298W. Struggling to hold 300W. Sagging to 290-295 intermittently.
8-12mins: Avg ~292W. Really struggling to stay in the 290s.
12-16mins: Avg ~294W. Still struggling but knowing I’m well past half way helps mentally.
16-18mins: Avg ~305W. I force myself to raise the exertion gradually by ~10-15W.
18-19mins: Avg ~330W. Serious pain but the end is sight. I can block it out for that long and push to VO2max level effort.
Final minute: Stop trying to hold anything in reserve and throw it all at the pedals. I find it both agony and bliss once I reach that point. The adrenaline that comes with the final stretch allows me find another 100W even though I felt ready to drop a minute earlier. I fling the power up there, and hang onto it for dear life. Average ~400W.
If I force myself to attempt a more constant pace, my average power is lower. In reality, no matter what I do, I can virtually always find that extra gear as long as I know I can stop immediately after. But, I don’t think this is is compatible with a 20min “FTP test” using the rule of thumb 95% estimation.
The above effort was on Zwift using their 20min protocol which includes a 5min hard effort prior to the 20min effort. Using 95% or 20min power gives an FTP of 290W. In reality I’d guess mine was closer to the 270-275W range at the time.
Any time people try to draw parallels between a single effort of those durations and the prescribed extrapolation from a benchmarking test with a set protocol, I just want to scream.
Can you be more specific about what you are objecting to here? In this particular thread, we are talking about a circular argument… Even though FTP is a conceptual thing, the inverse of the 8-minute test should align very closely with the OP’s 110% question. It is imperfect, but if the OPs experience varies radically from ~8+ minutes, then it is likely that the FTP basis was inaccurate. If the percentage was anything different, then the analogy would not apply. (Well, except for 105.3%, which would align very closely with a 20-minute test.)
The 8 minute test main set by TrainerRoad, to which you refer, is 2 30 second efforts of 150 and 160% of FTP, then 2 8 minute intervals. FTP is 90% of the average power of those. Same criticism with you reference to the Dr. Coggan 20 minute test. The 20 minute interval is one piece of a more extensive protocol designed to estimate FTP, and neglecting parts of that, as you’ve done here, totally negates the results.
This doesn’t mean that a single 20 minute effort on its own, or a single 8 minute effort on its own, can’t provide meaningful data points on a power duration curve, but you still can’t back calculate FTP from them. Not accurately, at least.
When I do a max 20min effort, I increase my average significantly in the last couple of minutes, especially the last minute. All of my best 20min effort averages have aged in the middle and finished with a surge. The below is my best recollection of the last one I did which averaged 305W.
0-5mins: Avg ~305W. Starting slightly fast then settling close to 300W.
5-8mins: Avg ~298W. Struggling to hold 300W. Sagging to 290-295 intermittently.
8-12mins: Avg ~292W. Really struggling to stay in the 290s.
12-16mins: Avg ~294W. Still struggling but knowing I’m well past half way helps mentally.
16-18mins: Avg ~305W. I force myself to raise the exertion gradually by ~10-15W.
18-19mins: Avg ~330W. Serious pain but the end is sight. I can block it out for that long and push to VO2max level effort.
Final minute: Stop trying to hold anything in reserve and throw it all at the pedals. I find it both agony and bliss once I reach that point. The adrenaline that comes with the final stretch allows me find another 100W even though I felt ready to drop a minute earlier. I fling the power up there, and hang onto it for dear life. Average ~400W.
If I force myself to attempt a more constant pace, my average power is lower. In reality, no matter what I do, I can virtually always find that extra gear as long as I know I can stop immediately after. But, I don’t think this is is compatible with a 20min “FTP test” using the rule of thumb 95% estimation.
The above effort was on Zwift using their 20min protocol which includes a 5min hard effort prior to the 20min effort. Using 95% or 20min power gives an FTP of 290W. In reality I’d guess mine was closer to the 270-275W range at the time.
That is almost exactly my numbers and mid-test fade. The only change I have is standing every 5’ and last 1’.
My stereo goes to 11
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