How have you used cycling to train for an ultra marathon?

Triathlon Forum
1

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

2

Having done some 50 mile and 90km races, I want to say there’s really no substitute for time on your feet. Biking can help keep your fitness in place, but you’re probably going to need some 50-70 mile weeks to get ready for a trail run of that length.

3

Having done some 50 mile and 90km races, I want to say there’s really no substitute for time on your feet. Biking can help keep your fitness in place, but you’re probably going to need some 50-70 mile weeks to get ready for a trail run of that length.

That’s not what I wanted to hear, lol! I could see maybe just scraping into the 50 range but much higher than that…scares me a bit. Not sure if this will matter, but I’d just be looking to finish, somewhere around 10 hours? Maybe I’m being crazy.

4

I mean, it is possible for you to go out and finish a 70km trail run on the training you are describing but the question then becomes how bad do you want it to potentially mess you up?

When you start getting intro ultra running you will see that theres a lot more to it than just endurance, your feet and legs also have to put up with the pounding. And getting your legs/feet used to the pounding has no substitute other than time on your feet running. Ive run 100 milers and trust me when i tell you how important lower body/ankle strength becomes.

Its hard to go into an ultra marathon undertrained when its your first one and your body has never experienced it.

5

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

Yet another ST ultra question where someone is looking for answers but gives us precious little info. :wink:

How recently are your IM races? How strongly did you run them? Did your run times stack up well against your 70.3 runs?

What sort of weekly mileage do you ride? How much would you be riding during your preparation? What’s a long ride for you? What’s a long run?

How many years have you been running and cycling significant mileages? Do you train consistently all year round?

Do you have any opportunity to run a few 50km trail races before April? Can you train with other trail/ultra runners?

What’s the elevation gain/loss in the race? Is it technical trail? If it’s very hilly or technical, do you ever train on similar trails? Do you have easy access to suitable trails?

How injury prone are you with running? 30-35 miles/week for a short period isn’t much.

6

I mean, it is possible for you to go out and finish a 70km trail run on the training you are describing but the question then becomes how bad do you want it to potentially mess you up?

When you start getting intro ultra running you will see that theres a lot more to it than just endurance, your feet and legs also have to put up with the pounding. And getting your legs/feet used to the pounding has no substitute other than time on your feet running. Ive run 100 milers and trust me when i tell you how important lower body/ankle strength becomes.

Its hard to go into an ultra marathon undertrained when its your first one and your body has never experienced it.

I hear ya. Definitely trying to get an idea of the training needed. My 2 iron distance races included lots of walking and I’d go into the 70km planning regular walking breaks and while running, keeping it very much under control. It’s in a generally flat area, no mountains or anything, but a Strava upload shows 2,765ft of climbing.

7

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

Yet another ST ultra question where someone is looking for answers but gives us precious little info. :wink:

How recently are your IM races? How strongly did you run them? Did your run times stack up well against your 70.3 runs?

What sort of weekly mileage do you ride? How much would you be riding during your preparation? What’s a long ride for you? What’s a long run?

How many years have you been running and cycling significant mileages? Do you train consistently all year round?

Do you have any opportunity to run a few 50km trail races before April? Can you train with other trail/ultra runners?

What’s the elevation gain/loss in the race? Is it technical trail? If it’s very hilly or technical, do you ever train on similar trails? Do you have easy access to suitable trails?

How injury prone are you with running? 30-35 miles/week for a short period isn’t much.

I should have known better!

IM races in '14 and '19. Didn’t run them strongly at all, lol. 70.3 times have never been good either, but are probably in line with 140.6.

I’ll say this…I’ve never been a big volume person. 2015-2019 I probably averaged around 2700mi/per year biking and 700mi/year running. 2020-21 has been crap which is why I’m trying to motivate getting back into things with a race. In that time I’ve only run 225mi and 3000mi biking. Total in 20 months.

If I supplemented ultra training with cycling, I’d probably look to do 1 or 2 midweek 60-90 minute rides and a weekend ride of 2 hours. Running wise, I’d look to hit 20-25mi during the week and really focus on a weekend day of running, trying to get 20mi+ at least 6x and at least one day of 50km.

I know my previous running isn’t much, but I’ve usually stayed injury free. Nothing major, little niggles here and there.

Never run any of the course but found a Strava file that says 2765ft with 3 of 5 sections being hilly. But no mountains, it’s on Long Island.

8

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

9

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

Agree with this. I ran exclusively last year building up to a 100k and man, there is NO WAY I could have been prepared if I had not shed the cycling and just spent more time pounding the trails. Your body needs to learn to feel what it is like to have that much volume in your legs and still decide to move forward. That only comes with volume.

The volumes you cite as never a volume person are likely contributing to your overall perception of lackluster IM and 70.3 performances. Did you put the time in to maximize your potential or are you looking for shortcuts?

10

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

You’re right. I don’t want to be an ultra runner. I would like to do an ultra marathon. I would like to properly prepare though. Which is why I’m here trying to get an idea of what it takes.

In 2016 I ran everyday for 210 days and that’s when I was topping out around 30-35mi/wk. I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi. Were you trying to be competitive? Or was that what it took just to finish?

11

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

Agree with this. I ran exclusively last year building up to a 100k and man, there is NO WAY I could have been prepared if I had not shed the cycling and just spent more time pounding the trails. Your body needs to learn to feel what it is like to have that much volume in your legs and still decide to move forward. That only comes with volume.

The volumes you cite as never a volume person are likely contributing to your overall perception of lackluster IM and 70.3 performances. Did you put the time in to maximize your potential or are you looking for shortcuts?

I’m not looking for shortcuts. But I’m also not looking to be competitive. I’m fully aware my slow IM times are due to not enough training. And if I wanted to be sub12 I’d have to put much more work in. I’m trying to find out if what I think my training would look like would be enough to finish.

12

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

You’re right. I don’t want to be an ultra runner. I would like to do an ultra marathon. I would like to properly prepare though. Which is why I’m here trying to get an idea of what it takes.

In 2016 I ran everyday for 210 days and that’s when I was topping out around 30-35mi/wk. I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi. Were you trying to be competitive? Or was that what it took just to finish?

When I ran Comrades (~90km), my run mileage for the peak months of training was 60-80 miles per week. I wasn’t trying to be competitive. I wanted to have a strong race, beat the cutoff time (12 hours), and ideally come in under 11. That was the mileage needed to do so. Like has been said above, there’s no substitute for time on your feet and learning to keep going on very tired legs. My recommendation is to drop the bike miles and add more running. Most of the volume for me was on the slow end of the scale. Doesn’t eliminate the pounding altogether but is a bit easier to handle and ramp up slowly.

13

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

I did a hilly 46km trail run with some decent elevation gain on training like this as I didn’t want to give up cycling.
I had leg cramps for part of it but survived with no major problems.
The key was keep out of the red zone always. Long run pace or easier for all of it.
I also used poles to take some of the impact off the legs.

If I was to try what you are doing, I’d add in a couple of quick weight sessions (15-20min) per week.
I find that weight training helps me with trail running more than triathlon or bike racing.

14

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

Yet another ST ultra question where someone is looking for answers but gives us precious little info. :wink:

How recently are your IM races? How strongly did you run them? Did your run times stack up well against your 70.3 runs?

What sort of weekly mileage do you ride? How much would you be riding during your preparation? What’s a long ride for you? What’s a long run?

How many years have you been running and cycling significant mileages? Do you train consistently all year round?

Do you have any opportunity to run a few 50km trail races before April? Can you train with other trail/ultra runners?

What’s the elevation gain/loss in the race? Is it technical trail? If it’s very hilly or technical, do you ever train on similar trails? Do you have easy access to suitable trails?

How injury prone are you with running? 30-35 miles/week for a short period isn’t much.

I should have known better!

IM races in '14 and '19. Didn’t run them strongly at all, lol. 70.3 times have never been good either, but are probably in line with 140.6.

I’ll say this…I’ve never been a big volume person. 2015-2019 I probably averaged around 2700mi/per year biking and 700mi/year running. 2020-21 has been crap which is why I’m trying to motivate getting back into things with a race. In that time I’ve only run 225mi and 3000mi biking. Total in 20 months.

If I supplemented ultra training with cycling, I’d probably look to do 1 or 2 midweek 60-90 minute rides and a weekend ride of 2 hours. Running wise, I’d look to hit 20-25mi during the week and really focus on a weekend day of running, trying to get 20mi+ at least 6x and at least one day of 50km.

I know my previous running isn’t much, but I’ve usually stayed injury free. Nothing major, little niggles here and there.

Never run any of the course but found a Strava file that says 2765ft with 3 of 5 sections being hilly. But no mountains, it’s on Long Island.

I was hoping you were going were saying to say both your IM races were in the last 12 months. Only averaging 10 miles/week of running in the last 20 months isn’t a good launching pad for a first ultra that you’re planning on low mileage training.

The positives are you have about 30 weeks to train for this, it sounds a relatively benign 70km of trail, and if you can do IM, you can be ready to do the distance. You’re obviously prepared to walk as required on race day, and if you do it right, it won’t be any more uncomfortable IM. It sounds like you have the appropriate headspace and attitude for that.

My suggestions for the biggest gains from the fewest alterations to your training plan:
Make the long runs a regular part of your training soon as you can safely do so. It will be your single most important session. 6 x 20 miles isn’t much when you have the 30 weeks to prepare. If you work up gradually to 12 x 18-20 miles that will pay huge dividends. Don’t be concerned about pace.Make your weekend long ride a brick session. 3 miles off the bike will be plenty. Ideally the day after your long run.Decrease your running total for weekdays to compensate for the brick session and long runs. Suggest 12 to 18 miles max total, especially given your midweek cycling.Try for a couple of 50km trail races as your long runs. They’ll be a great motivator and confidence builder, and by just mixing with ultra runners you’ll learn lots by osmosis.Consistency trumps everything. The enemy of consistency is injury. Err on the side of caution when playing with increases in mileage. Don’t be afraid to take a day off if your body needs it.Have fun.
Good luck with it. I reckon you can do it. :slight_smile:

15

I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi.

I didn’t think so either but through carefully and slowly building up to it, it became pretty easy to do and handle.

Were you trying to be competitive?
Heavens no. I’ve never been competitive at anything. I’m a solid MOP triathlete and very happy with that.

Or was that what it took just to finish?
As with everything, I’m training to finish as strong as possible and not make the day/event a pure sufferfest.

16

If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run.

Sounds like you really don’t want to be an ultra runner or properly prepare for an ultra run.

I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Negative. You need to run, as much as possible.

Back when I was doing ultras I worked with a very well respected ultra coach who used to post here quite a bit. Haven’t seen him around here too much recently. When we first started chatting the first thing he said was that he wasn’t going to start working with me until I committed to dropping any sort of cycling or swim focus and commit to running 6 days a week. I was hesitant at first as I thought my previous 4x per week of 40-50 miles would be good enough and that I just needed some more ultra specific direction/guidance. Once I started running 6x per week (70-80 miles) the improvements were dramatic. The only time I would ride would be on my off day and it was no more than about an hour of super easy spinning (less than 100 watts) or 3 mile round trips to the grocery store. To pout it in perspective I average about 10k to 12k miles per year of riding. During those 2.5 years I did less than 500 miles each year.

You’re right. I don’t want to be an ultra runner. I would like to do an ultra marathon. I would like to properly prepare though. Which is why I’m here trying to get an idea of what it takes.

In 2016 I ran everyday for 210 days and that’s when I was topping out around 30-35mi/wk. I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi. Were you trying to be competitive? Or was that what it took just to finish?

When I ran Comrades (~90km), my run mileage for the peak months of training was 60-80 miles per week. I wasn’t trying to be competitive. I wanted to have a strong race, beat the cutoff time (12 hours), and ideally come in under 11. That was the mileage needed to do so. Like has been said above, there’s no substitute for time on your feet and learning to keep going on very tired legs. My recommendation is to drop the bike miles and add more running. Most of the volume for me was on the slow end of the scale. Doesn’t eliminate the pounding altogether but is a bit easier to handle and ramp up slowly.

I’m just not sure if I see myself getting up to that kind of mileage and overall time. Shooting for 40-45 will probably already take me to 8-9 hours/wk. Thinking of running an additional 3-5 hours seems too much and I really don’t want to stop cycling completely. Thanks for the insight!

17

In the early stages of thinking about doing a 70km trail run in April 2022. No open marathon or longer races done but I’ve done 2 iron distance races. I’ve done 30-35mi/week for a couple months once but never done more volume than that. If I were to do this I don’t know that I want to be running 6 or 7 days a week but would maybe prefer 3 midweek runs and really focusing on a weekend long run. I’d like to add some cycling into those 4 runs to help increase endurance.

Anyone done this and can share their experience?

I did a hilly 46km trail run with some decent elevation gain on training like this as I didn’t want to give up cycling.
I had leg cramps for part of it but survived with no major problems.
The key was keep out of the red zone always. Long run pace or easier for all of it.
I also used poles to take some of the impact off the legs.

If I was to try what you are doing, I’d add in a couple of quick weight sessions (15-20min) per week.
I find that weight training helps me with trail running more than triathlon or bike racing.

Thanks for your sharing your experience! It gives some amount of hope, lol!

18

I was hoping you were going were saying to say both your IM races were in the last 12 months. Only averaging 10 miles/week of running in the last 20 months isn’t a good launching pad for a first ultra that you’re planning on low mileage training.

The positives are you have about 30 weeks to train for this, it sounds a relatively benign 70km of trail, and if you can do IM, you can be ready to do the distance. You’re obviously prepared to walk as required on race day, and if you do it right, it won’t be any more uncomfortable IM. It sounds like you have the appropriate headspace and attitude for that.

My suggestions for the biggest gains from the fewest alterations to your training plan:
Make the long runs a regular part of your training soon as you can safely do so. It will be your single most important session. 6 x 20 miles isn’t much when you have the 30 weeks to prepare. If you work up gradually to 12 x 18-20 miles that will pay huge dividends. Don’t be concerned about pace.Make your weekend long ride a brick session. 3 miles off the bike will be plenty. Ideally the day after your long run.Decrease your running total for weekdays to compensate for the brick session and long runs. Suggest 12 to 18 miles max total, especially given your midweek cycling.Try for a couple of 50km trail races as your long runs. They’ll be a great motivator and confidence builder, and by just mixing with ultra runners you’ll learn lots by osmosis.Consistency trumps everything. The enemy of consistency is injury. Err on the side of caution when playing with increases in mileage. Don’t be afraid to take a day off if your body needs it.Have fun.
Good luck with it. I reckon you can do it. :slight_smile:

Yeah, it’s been a rough almost 2 years training wise. I think I might need an event to prep for to get over that. Thanks for responding, I feel like I’ve got the right headspace about it too and obviously that won’t get you to the finish, but it’s definitely a part of it. I’d be doing this almost purely for ‘fun’ and for the experience and as a new challenge.

I’m definitely going to think about everything you’re saying. I was about to start a 60 day/1000mi bike challenge to get me going and then really hit the running in November giving me 5 months of focusing on the running. I also like the idea of turning a Sunday bike ride into an easy brick, after a Saturday long run. Not sure I’ll be able to do any prep races, unfortunately.

Thanks!

19

In 2016 I ran everyday for 210 days and that’s when I was topping out around 30-35mi/wk. I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi. Were you trying to be competitive? Or was that what it took just to finish?

I’m sure you can finish an ultra marathon, although it would be slow (relative to you, and maybe miss the cutoff) and painful. If you’re simply wanting to finish one, you’re probably good to go. Once you complete your first one, you can decide if you want to do another and then you’ll increase your mileage.

Personally, I would recommend more miles on your feet, but you can only do what your willing to do and prioritize in your training time. As other have said, biking, swimming or any other cross training at this mileage is probably not going to be as beneficial as just running - even running slowly.

20

I’m not sure how my body will hold up to the massive miles. There’s no way I’d get 70-80mi

I’m only an Ultrarunning Fanboy, but I’m fairly certain that you can’t use cycling as a substitute for running, sorry

I’ve suggested “The Gary the Vale Ultramarathon Training Program” before, but it may not add the mileage you’re looking for, quickly enough

The Plan goes like this: Every week, you add ONE mile to your long run; ideally, by going 1/2 a mile further on an out-n-back route, so you can look 800yds down the road and say to yourself “Self. We’re going down to** there **next week. Just a little further, that’s not so bad, right?”

Now, be warned … to my knowledge, no one has actually started at zero and stuck with it for an ENTIRE year, culminating in a 52-mile run

Good luck